Identical speakers across the front

[prerich]

I have three Snell E-II speakers across the front array. My question is, have any of you tried using three identical speakers across the front instead of the more traditional horizontal oriented center channel? Ergonomicly it can be cumbersome but sonicly, the results are uncanny! My oldest son came over the other night and listened to my system with some of his music. He had recently bought my old receiver from me to use as his prepro (same thing that I was doing). He loves the receiver and wanted to hear my RX-V663 in 7 channel stereo. When he heard it he was like "Dad it's like one huge sonic image you can't tell that there's a center channe because they all sound exactly alike" I told him thats the best timbre matching that you could ever achieve.

He's heard different incarnations of my system before but he stated that he's never heard it this smooth (but still dynamic). My son doesn't realize but he said the same thing while watching a movie when I went to three Infinity RS-6B (Kappa) speakerrs across the front (I use these as spares incase the Snells go down). There is a difference between the horizontal oriented center and using an identical speaker oriented vertically. That's when my system's sonic character changed. Once you go vertical - you never want to go back again.

[HDJK]

This I am still dreaming of But it's really hard to find another of those K&H O111. At least placing the center (O96) vertically makes a difference, but I can only imagine the improvement a third identical speaker will give me.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by HDJK

This I am still dreaming of But it's really hard to find another of those K&H O111. At least placing the center (O96) vertically makes a difference, but I can only imagine the improvement a third identical speaker will give me.

A huge improvement! But I'm glad you noticed the difference just by going vertical! Finding that third speaker can be hard - especially if they're rare speakers.

[HDJK]

This SACD by Christian Willisohn is one of my favorite discs. When I first went MCH I couldn't wait to listen to it. But what a disappointment it was compared to the stereo version It just sounded ripped apart, nowhere near the audio bubble I got from stereo only.

So going vertically helped a lot and I do listen to it in MCH, because the vocal is simply more defined with a dedicated speaker (center instead of phantom) and the surrounds add nice atmosphere. But I'm longing for the day... 3 identical speakers

[MPDIEHL]

I wanted to replace my fronts and I went the other way.
I put 3 "center" speakers across the front. set the xover to 80hz and have never been happier....
3 matched speakers do make a big diff.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by MPDIEHL

I wanted to replace my fronts and I went the other way.
I put 3 "center" speakers across the front. set the xover to 80hz and have never been happier....
3 matched speakers do make a big diff.

That will work also As long as they are three identical quality speakers and since the center channels don't reach that deep, 80hz is an excellent crossover point - you're using the same principle - it does pay off!

[Beta Man]

My center is of the same line, as that of my fronts.... but it costs $900 less or so than a third front-tower..... So I'm not able to try this set up.... I've seen it done more and more for projector set-ups for those who can place the center behind the screen, one thing to note......

The L/R , Center, rather than "3-Front" setup is BETTER, if you have larger speakers...... I'm talking about Center Channels that have two or three woofers.... since you're orienting your sound horizontally to getter better flow from L to R and R to L..... (better panning??) if you have three large towers, you have more top-to-bottom definition, but less dispesion left to right..... honestly I doubt many could tell the difference in a blind test....

[Woody]

I completely concur. If you have the ability to have 3 of the exact same speakers across the front DO IT!

95% of the time when we do a perf screen, we do it. It creates a great soundfield that you can really notice when watching movies.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by Woody

I completely concur. If you have the ability to have 3 of the exact same speakers across the front DO IT!

95% of the time when we do a perf screen, we do it. It creates a great soundfield that you can really notice when watching movies.

Question about B&W speaker stands.

I would like to get the same speaker stands that I got for my 705's for my HTM7 (for when I get the projector) right now I have the stand designed for the HTM7, but want the same height as the 703's when I place it behind the screen....... They're sold/boxed by the pair....

is it possible to buy "One" stand designed for the 705's or will I pretty much be out of luck??? I don't want to pay $325 for the pair, then not use one....

I guess I should look into putting my current speaker stand "on" something (even as primitive as cinder-blocks, but still on it's attached stand) Behind the screen????? I like the idea of Ebaying my current center-channel-stand for $400 or so, and coming out ahead on the deal!

[Woody]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Question about B&W speaker stands.

I would like to get the same speaker stands that I got for my 705's for my HTM7 (for when I get the projector) right now I have the stand designed for the HTM7, but want the same height as the 703's when I place it behind the screen....... They're sold/boxed by the pair....

is it possible to buy "One" stand designed for the 705's or will I pretty much be out of luck??? I don't want to pay $325 for the pair, then not use one....

I guess I should look into putting my current speaker stand "on" something (even as primitive as cinder-blocks, but still on it's attached stand) Behind the screen????? I like the idea of Ebaying my current center-channel-stand for $400 or so, and coming out ahead on the deal!

I would call your B&W guy and ask that. I am pretty sure you cannot buy Paradigm stands seperately, but I am not sure about B&W.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

My center is of the same line, as that of my fronts.... but it costs $900 less or so than a third front-tower..... So I'm not able to try this set up.... I've seen it done more and more for projector set-ups for those who can place the center behind the screen, one thing to note......

The L/R , Center, rather than "3-Front" setup is BETTER, if you have larger speakers...... I'm talking about Center Channels that have two or three woofers.... since you're orienting your sound horizontally to getter better flow from L to R and R to L..... (better panning??) if you have three large towers, you have more top-to-bottom definition, but less dispesion left to right..... honestly I doubt many could tell the difference in a blind test....

Depends on the speaker and their dispersion patterns. My speakers are 2 way bi-poles with one woofer. The rear tweeter on the "Center" speaker is bypassed - but the L/R are engaged. My soundfield is very imersive - almost holographic (I've had people to get up and answer the door or the phone - search through the house, It actually fooled me the other day and I went for my weapon - before I realized that it was my system - had a movie on starzHD and I was doing some cleaning while it was on in the room).

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

My center is of the same line, as that of my fronts.... but it costs $900 less or so than a third front-tower..... So I'm not able to try this set up.... I've seen it done more and more for projector set-ups for those who can place the center behind the screen, one thing to note......

The L/R , Center, rather than "3-Front" setup is BETTER, if you have larger speakers...... I'm talking about Center Channels that have two or three woofers.... since you're orienting your sound horizontally to getter better flow from L to R and R to L..... (better panning??) if you have three large towers, you have more top-to-bottom definition, but less dispesion left to right..... honestly I doubt many could tell the difference in a blind test....

Oh, I've seen a B&W projector system with three 802's upfront - that's the system that inspired me to go this route !!!!

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by prerich

Oh, I've seen a B&W projector system with three 802's upfront - that's the system that inspired me to go this route !!!!

I could get three 802d's up front..... but the added expense of a divorce attorney is my current hurdle I could see how it goes down now...


THE WIFE "Someone must have stolen our credit card"

ME "why do you say that"

THE WIFE "There is a charge for $20,000"

ME "oh... that's... uh... odd"

THE WIFE "I guess I should call the C.C. people"

ME "You look great today"

THE WIFE "What did you do???"

ME "Let me show you something"

802D-2T.jpg

THE WIFE "Let me show you something"





You can only imagine the rest........ *she forgives me???*

Heck.... I "haggled" they're $22,365.47 after tax retail!!!!!

[prerich]

Now that's funny !!!!!!!!!

[Blaumann]

Originally Posted by prerich

Depends on the speaker and their dispersion patterns. My speakers are 2 way bi-poles with one woofer. The rear tweeter on the "Center" speaker is bypassed - but the L/R are engaged. My soundfield is very imersive - almost holographic (I've had people to get up and answer the door or the phone - search through the house, It actually fooled me the other day and I went for my weapon - before I realized that it was my system - had a movie on starzHD and I was doing some cleaning while it was on in the room).

Dude!



on topic: recently went from a 2.0 set-up to 5.0 with five identical speakers (studio monitors). Can't comment on how much better it is than having a mixed setup (as i've never owned one), but i have to say it is nice to not have one speaker stand out sonically. Very homogenic soundstage.

After some upcoming room treatments, i'll see if i can integrate a nice litte sub as well and then i am set.

[Gremal]

Yeah, seven identical speakers are theoretically "ideal", but it's impractical for 99% of us. There are many options to create a seamless surround field, and I think there are ways to do it in any room. I have unique limitations in my room that would prevent me from using a 3rd 802D in the center (it would block my plasma). So I'm currently using an HTM1 with good results. Unfortunately, this doesn't have exactly the same tweeter, midrange or woofers as the 802D. But when I have the $$$$ to upgrade, there is an even better alternative to a third identical speaker in the center: the HTM1D, which has the same tweeter and midrange assembly as the 802D, but is made for staying out of the way of the screen. There is no way you can convince me it would be better to have a third 802D in the center.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Blaumann

Dude!



on topic: recently went from a 2.0 set-up to 5.0 with five identical speakers (studio monitors). Can't comment on how much better it is than having a mixed setup (as i've never owned one), but i have to say it is nice to not have one speaker stand out sonically. Very homogenic soundstage.

After some upcoming room treatments, i'll see if i can integrate a nice litte sub as well and then i am set.

Now that's the ultimate synergy - 5 identical speakers...Excellent!

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Yeah, seven identical speakers are theoretically "ideal", but it's impractical for 99% of us. There are many options to create a seamless surround field, and I think there are ways to do it in any room. I have unique limitations in my room that would prevent me from using a 3rd 802D in the center (it would block my plasma). So I'm currently using an HTM1 with good results. Unfortunately, this doesn't have exactly the same tweeter, midrange or woofers as the 802D. But when I have the $$$$ to upgrade, there is an even better alternative to a third identical speaker in the center: the HTM1D, which has the same tweeter and midrange assembly as the 802D, but is made for staying out of the way of the screen. There is no way you can convince me it would be better to have a third 802D in the center.

Maybe I can't convince you of that, but that center is staying with the vertical alignment that I'm talking about. When we listen to stereo music - the tweeters should be at ear level of the seated person. The same rule should apply theoretically to the front array in surround sound. You are right 99% of people can't pull this off, but when you can - the blend is unmistakeable. Pans (as taught to me by PARA back in 1996 should form a straight line) That's impossible when the speakers are not the same height. This is why most center channels have stands or are angled to achieve that affect. But for seamless panning...straight across. I wish you could have heard that system. It convinced me.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

My center is of the same line, as that of my fronts.... but it costs $900 less or so than a third front-tower..... So I'm not able to try this set up.... I've seen it done more and more for projector set-ups for those who can place the center behind the screen, one thing to note......

The L/R , Center, rather than "3-Front" setup is BETTER, if you have larger speakers...... I'm talking about Center Channels that have two or three woofers.... since you're orienting your sound horizontally to getter better flow from L to R and R to L..... (better panning??) if you have three large towers, you have more top-to-bottom definition, but less dispesion left to right..... honestly I doubt many could tell the difference in a blind test....

You absolutely could tell the difference in a blind test. It comes from how the speaker interacts with the room surfaces. A horizontal placed speaker will have a strong interaction with the floor and ceiling, and that interaction will produce a measureable response, and the measureable response turns into an audible response in the form of dialog intelligibility. Horizontally placed center speakers have a very limited vertical dispersion, and suffers from lobing at the sides of the speakers which also effects dialog intellibility when sitting off axis. This is a bad speaker orientation if you do not sit exactly in the center axis of its output.

A vertically placed speaker has a wide vertical dispersion pattern, and a limited horizontal dispersion pattern. Its dialog intelligibility will be alot better because of its limited interaction with the floor and ceiling. People sitting off axis of center will generally hear the same thing as a person sitting on axis, so there is more flexibility in where you can sit, and still get excellent dialog intelligibility.

If you have three large towers across the front in a vertical position, you will have excellent vertical dispersion, and limited horizontal dispersion, not the other way around. You have your placement versus dispersion pattern reversed.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

You absolutely could tell the difference in a blind test. It comes from how the speaker interacts with the room surfaces. A horizontal placed speaker will have a strong interaction with the floor and ceiling, and that interaction will produce a measureable response, and the measureable response turns into an audible response in the form of dialog intelligibility. Horizontally placed center speakers have a very limited vertical dispersion, and suffers from lobing at the sides of the speakers which also effects dialog intellibility when sitting off axis. This is a bad speaker orientation if you do not sit exactly in the center axis of its output.

A vertically placed speaker has a wide vertical dispersion pattern, and a limited horizontal dispersion pattern. Its dialog intelligibility will be alot better because of its limited interaction with the floor and ceiling. People sitting off axis of center will generally hear the same thing as a person sitting on axis, so there is more flexibility in where you can sit, and still get excellent dialog intelligibility.

If you have three large towers across the front in a vertical position, you will have excellent vertical dispersion, and limited horizontal dispersion, not the other way around. You have your placement versus dispersion pattern reversed.

Hello Sir,
I've finally posted some pics - they're not that good but they will surffice. Remember - I'm more audio than video anyway