What's With Dolby True HD and DTS? . . .

[Blu-RayLover]

Lately, I have begun to notice a strange situation that perhaps someone might be able to clarify for me? This issue concerns the difference between PCM Uncompressed and Dolby True HD in terms of performance. In other words, what’s in question here is that on two particular Blu-Ray films, “300” and “Spiderman 3,” I’ve noticed that the PCM Uncompressed tracks sound far and away better than the Dolby True HD! My assumption was that the Dolby True HD should sound better than the PCM Uncompressed. . .I’m I correct on this? Now, I should point out that I’ve never really been sure just what or how my BDP-94HD Pioneer is handling the surround sound, with the internal processor in the player. I’ve always felt that the player being 2nd generation, was never able to really process Dolby True HD and therefore this might be the problem I’m hearing with various Discs that have both PCM Uncompressed and Dolby True HD soundtracks.

I have no HDMI hookup, so I’m using the 5.1 output lines directly into the power amp. Generally, I wouldn’t exactly say I’ve had any serious problems, especially with PCM Uncompressed and of course DTS HD. I’d also be interested to know, what is the real big difference between DTS HD and DTS HD MA or even DTS HD MA HR? The big DTS question for me is whether or not there are REAL BIG differences in audio performance? Does the DTS HD vs. DTS HD MA, have differences in actual sound quality? Or, is it all just a matter of labeling or more channels of sound with DTS HD MA as opposed to DTS HD? Please understand that I’ve never had any sort of clear cut explanation on the various changes and differences in the Blu-Ray system. Everything seems to be confusing to the point that I can’t tell what’s going on with the surround sound issue. I gather that if I upgraded with a brand new receiver and player I would probably solve this issue? Whatever the case, I welcome all opinions on this subject.

[JJ]

My first bit of say on the subject - your assumption was incorrect.

Uncompressed PCM is the best possible sound available - it is the pure, unaltered, uncompressed audio.

Dolby TrueHD is a compressed format, albeit barely.

More to come as I continue reading your post...

[Kilian]

The Pioneer BDP-94HD does NOT internally decode (or bitstream) Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD HR or DTS-HD MA. So you were only getting the companion Dolby Digital or the core DTS tracks via the analogue outs.

The basics of these codecs are all covered a lot on the internet and the Dolby HD Whitepaper and DTS HD whitepapers, both freely available, are good references to start with.

Edit: it can internally decode Dolby TrueHD.

[Blu-RayLover]

I seem to get more important and clear information here than when I call a company. It seems most Audio/Video companies don't like to admit to limitations or that something is missing. My next question would be what audio advantages would one have with an upgrade to Dolby True HD or DTS HD MA? Would the sound be superior than what I'm getting now? Would it be like the big difference between Dolby Digital and DTS on standard DVD's? Can the new surround sound encodings offer better dynamic range. Or, is it all just a matter of detail and sound clarity? This is all I need to know so I can plan ahead. After all, why really bother with spending more money towards an upgrade, if the sonic differences can't be so discernible! I believe most people out there that have already invested in Home Theater aren't going to be so prone as to feel an overall change is now necessary. But, I will accept progress and any possible improvements over the long haul of time.

[JJ]

To put it plainly for you, friend, the difference between 448kbps DD and 755 kbps DTS to the 4+mbps bitrates of PCM, DTS-HD MA, TrueHD is like the jump between DVDs and Blu-ray. Night and day. Beautiful. A true sonic experience that actually does place you in the movie.

[werewuf]

Originally Posted by Kilian

The Pioneer BDP-94HD does NOT internally decode (or bitstream) Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD HR or DTS-HD MA. So you were only getting the companion Dolby Digital or the core DTS tracks via the analogue outs.

The basics of these codecs are all covered a lot on the internet and the Dolby HD Whitepaper and DTS HD whitepapers, both freely available, are good references to start with.

The Pio BDP-94HD most certainly DOES internally decode True HD- go here:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...ayers/BDP-94HD

However, in order to get it you have to use an HDMI cable, it cannot be had over 5.1 output lines. So you are not getting a true comparison at this time....

[Sith]

Originally Posted by werewuf

The Pio BDP-94HD most certainly DOES internally decode True HD- go here:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...ayers/BDP-94HD

However, in order to get it you have to use an HDMI cable, it cannot be had over 5.1 output lines. So you are not getting a true comparison at this time....

Yeah like he said Cable up bro, HDMI cable are not that expensive...You can
sport one for like $15 or less...

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Blu-RayLover

Lately, I have begun to notice a strange situation that perhaps someone might be able to clarify for me? This issue concerns the difference between PCM Uncompressed and Dolby True HD in terms of performance. In other words, what’s in question here is that on two particular Blu-Ray films, “300” and “Spiderman 3,” I’ve noticed that the PCM Uncompressed tracks sound far and away better than the Dolby True HD! My assumption was that the Dolby True HD should sound better than the PCM Uncompressed. . .I’m I correct on this? Now, I should point out that I’ve never really been sure just what or how my BDP-94HD Pioneer is handling the surround sound, with the internal processor in the player. I’ve always felt that the player being 2nd generation, was never able to really process Dolby True HD and therefore this might be the problem I’m hearing with various Discs that have both PCM Uncompressed and Dolby True HD soundtracks.

I have no HDMI hookup, so I’m using the 5.1 output lines directly into the power amp. Generally, I wouldn’t exactly say I’ve had any serious problems, especially with PCM Uncompressed and of course DTS HD. I’d also be interested to know, what is the real big difference between DTS HD and DTS HD MA or even DTS HD MA HR? The big DTS question for me is whether or not there are REAL BIG differences in audio performance? Does the DTS HD vs. DTS HD MA, have differences in actual sound quality? Or, is it all just a matter of labeling or more channels of sound with DTS HD MA as opposed to DTS HD? Please understand that I’ve never had any sort of clear cut explanation on the various changes and differences in the Blu-Ray system. Everything seems to be confusing to the point that I can’t tell what’s going on with the surround sound issue. I gather that if I upgraded with a brand new receiver and player I would probably solve this issue? Whatever the case, I welcome all opinions on this subject.

Read A Guide to Home Theater Audio CODECs. There are no sound quality differences between PCM, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS HD Master Audio. All three are lossless. Any difference that you think you are hearing between them are due to channel volume differences. Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD High Resolution are lossy codecs, but their quality is excellent. Read the opinion of a panel of experts that visited Dolby and DTS headquarters and tested the different codecs.
http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...PCM?page=0%2C0

[Kilian]

Originally Posted by werewuf

The Pio BDP-94HD most certainly DOES internally decode True HD- go here:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...ayers/BDP-94HD

However, in order to get it you have to use an HDMI cable, it cannot be had over 5.1 output lines. So you are not getting a true comparison at this time....

Yes it does decode Dolby TrueHD. My apologies.

But why won't it output to 5.1 analogue? There is a DAC isn't there to convert the PCM?

There is one potential problem comparing native PCM and Dolby TrueHD tracks: make sure the volume is equalised (level matched) before comparing, as Dialnorm is often used in Dolby tracks resulting in a few dB lower in volume. People usually assume the louder track is the better track.

[fronn]

Are you level matching when comparing the True HD and PCM tracks?

In the case of Spiderman 3, the True HD track is superior (24bit vs 16 on the PCM track). If you're hearing the PCM sounding better it's likely because something isn't set up correctly or the volume difference is making it sound better to you (often a higher volume will be perceived as a better sound, within reason of course).

[Penny]

I'm a big believer that the further you go up the food chain with respect to equipment, the lesser the actual codecs play a role. Good, competent speakers, amps and processors are almost always going to provide exquisite sound (not taking room acoustics into account for the moment). When lossless codecs are added to the mix it's just that much better.

I realize that all of the new lossless codecs are supposed to be quite similar but, like anything else in life we're always going to have our favorites. I really was biased towards DTS HD and Dolby THD but, at the end of the day, 7.1 uncompressed PCM just sounds better to me.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Penny

I'm a big believer that the further you go up the food chain with respect to equipment, the lesser the actual codecs play a role. Good, competent speakers, amps and processors are almost always going to provide exquisite sound (not taking room acoustics into account for the moment). When lossless codecs are added to the mix it's just that much better.

I realize that all of the new lossless codecs are supposed to be quite similar but, like anything else in life we're always going to have our favorites. I really was biased towards DTS HD and Dolby THD but, at the end of the day, 7.1 uncompressed PCM just sounds better to me.

Off topic, but for lack of better words, that's an interesting array of speakers you have there. All of them are high quality, but I'm worried about voicing - especially across the front sound stage. Do you plan to go all B&W at some point, or all LSi Polk, or sell the whole front array and go all Vandy ? How did you balance this system?

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by prerich

Off topic, but for lack of better words, that's an interesting array of speakers you have there. All of them are high quality, but I'm worried about voicing - especially across the front sound stage. Do you plan to go all B&W at some point, or all LSi Polk, or sell the whole front array and go all Vandy ? How did you balance this system?

Thats a good question.

[Penny]

Originally Posted by prerich

Off topic, but for lack of better words, that's an interesting array of speakers you have there. All of them are high quality, but I'm worried about voicing - especially across the front sound stage. Do you plan to go all B&W at some point, or all LSi Polk, or sell the whole front array and go all Vandy ? How did you balance this system?

That is a good question. I have owned the entire b&w line and loved the CC but had fallen out of love with the 802's. Nothing reproduces the human voice like the HTM. Now, my fronts (lsi-25's) are quite far away from the center channel and set about 3 feet behind them. The lsi's are about 16 feet apart so as far as a coherent sound field; that really doesn't play a role here. They sound fantastic and life like. As for the Vandy's; they offer such huge sound field that I can't think of a better surround speaker. They're also set back about 12 feet from the listening position.

I've owned 100's of speakers and right now I'm really happy with what I've got.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Penny

I've owned 100's of speakers and right now I'm really happy with what I've got.

And that's the only opinion that really matters Enjoy!
p.s. you have a huge HT room if the 25's are 16 feet apart - how far are they from the side walls and rear walls and what type of sub do you have?

[Penny]

Originally Posted by prerich

And that's the only opinion that really matters Enjoy!
p.s. you have a huge HT room if the 25's are 16 feet apart - how far are they from the side walls and rear walls and what type of sub do you have?

By the way, I used to work for Snell out in Haverhill, MA when I lived there. Good choice in speaks.

Yeah, my HT is enormous. It's just under 5200 cubic ft. The speaks sit about 2.5 ft. away from the walls. I have 4 subwoofers, in fact. I didn't have enough room in the sig. to put all the bells and whistles. I have 2 Sunfire True in the front, 1 Velo DD15 on the left side in the middle against the wall and 1 enormous 18" Digital Phase, acoustic suspension sub with 2500+ watts that peaks at right around 3600, sitting directly behind the chairs. This sub was hand made for me by the owner and has a full band eq. and DSP control so every nuance of the audio signal is interpreted by the chip inside and sent to the woofer. It's really pretty cool.

[CptGreedle]

Lots of problems here. You are not using HDMI, so you are not getting the best sound anyways. Your set up can not decode TrueHD so you are getting a more compressed core sound setting.
BIT FOR BIT TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, and PCM should sound the same. Yes PCM is uncompressed and the best audio. But the others are compressed LOSSLESS formats. While their may be some discrepancy, all the data is there to have something that sounds as good as PCM. The manner to which it is decoded can result in some differences, but overall they should be very very close. In fact I doubt anyone where could identify the differences in a blind sound test.
Also, some movies have better sound tracks than others. So any test done would have to be with the exact same source.

TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are better than PCM imo. WHY? Simple. While PCM is pure lossless sound, it is also uncompressed meaning it takes up more room on the disc. With TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, while they have to be decoded (and that can be an issue), they take up less space allowing for a better encoded video and/or more extras. They all sound great. Any differences between them are so minor in the end, that the benefits of a compressed lossless format outweigh the problems. Once again, imo.

[Penny]

I've listened to DTS HD MA on the klipsch RF 83 and RC 64 and the listener fatigue I got from that just about turned me off home theater forever. DTSHD sounds way too bright to me. Although, it also seems bigger and fuller than the others. PCM seems to have a good combo of all the attributes. IMO.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Penny

By the way, I used to work for Snell out in Haverhill, MA when I lived there. Good choice in speaks.

Yeah, my HT is enormous. It's just under 5200 cubic ft. The speaks sit about 2.5 ft. away from the walls. I have 4 subwoofers, in fact. I didn't have enough room in the sig. to put all the bells and whistles. I have 2 Sunfire True in the front, 1 Velo DD15 on the left side in the middle against the wall and 1 enormous 18" Digital Phase, acoustic suspension sub with 2500+ watts that peaks at right around 3600, sitting directly behind the chairs. This sub was hand made for me by the owner and has a full band eq. and DSP control so every nuance of the audio signal is interpreted by the chip inside and sent to the woofer. It's really pretty cool.

Thank you, I knew with the size of your room you had to have some interesting subs to say the least! Oh and I agree with you that DTS-HD-Master can sound bright...especially on bright sounding speakers. As you know Snell has that famous "New England" sound, to me it's very balanced. I've owned Klipsch before and I could never imagaine hearing DTS-HD-MA through some of their speakers (not accompained by proper amps - put the right amp with a classic Klipsch - they will sound smooth as butter).

[airkitty]

I worked mid/high end audio in the early ninties and we sold Klipsch. Young customers loved them, schools loved them, we said " friends don't let friends buy Klipsch." They always sounded bright to me. The horn design is very efficient so small amps work well with their speakers but to me is not pleasing to listen.
B&W's now
Fried's, Mirage, Wilson Audio, Paradigm - before