Analog output callibration

[narsibvl]

This is in continuation of my previous post....

So I am all set to buy the panny 55 or the sony 550 and then the bomb happened...

I heard about the trouble of callibrating your speaker to use the 5.1 / 7.1 analog output, a few of these posts even suggested that it is better to use the toslink digital instead of the analog output as the digital audio though doesnt render the high end audio formats atleast doesn't sound as bad as the analog output if not callibrated properly and callibration itself is such a pain. In my situation, that face that i need a 7.1 to a 5.1 converters compounds the issue,

so....what are experts experience in callibrating the analog output out of the panny and the sony ?


Thanks
Narsi

[singhcr]

There is no difference in calibration of a receiver using analog inputs versus HDMI inputs other than possibly having to boost the LFE gain.

The Panasonic 55 has analog outputs that are offered as 5.1 and 2.0 stereo or 7.1, you can select which ones you want. I have a 5.1 system so I used that, the other two outputs that would be used for 7.1 sound also double as 2.0 stereo outputs.

Do not use a toslink output, you will not get lossless sound! Analog outputs are just as good as sound decoded in the receiver, you just might have to increase the LFE gain.

[Yeha-Noha]

You are going to need an AVR that does calibration on the analog inputs. Otherwise, you won't get the most out of your sound sytem. An uncalibrated sound system with lossless analog inputs could wind up sounding worse than a properly calibrated system having lossy audio inputs.

The problem is that many AVRs, especially the not so advanced entry level ones, won't calibrate your sysem using a program like Audyssey on the analog inputs. My Yamaha AVR is one of those. I cannot run YPAO when the multichannel inputs (which are analog) are selected. Without running YPAO, my speaker levels, bass mangament, time delays, and equalization are not going to be correct for my listening enviroment. There is no problem when using HDMI inputs or Toslink/coaxial inputs because those are digital inputs which go directly to the AVR's DSP circuitry.

There is more to bass management than just boosting the LFE signal. You got to set the speaker sizes and crossover points too. So how do you do that if the AVR doesn't do it on analog inputs? Some BD players that have analog outputs might have bass management especially very expensive ones. Those I have used were very limited in bass management and didn't do much better than none at all.

[BIslander]

It is true that bass management, distance/time management, and EQ in the receiver are not applied to the analog inputs by most processors. Those adjustments are done while the audio is digital and with analog transmission, of course, it is no longer digital when it gets to the AVR. Some better receivers can re-digitize their analog inputs and that feature allows you to use the AVR's processing tools. But, most cannot.

So, you need to do the speaker setups in the player when using multichannel analog. Tell the player how many speakers you have and whether they are large or small. Enter the distance values if your speakers are not all the same distance from your main listening position. Most players do not have EQ and most have a single fixed crossover. These speaker setup tools are not as good as the ones in most receivers. But, unless you have a room that requires lots of extra processing to produce good sound, they are plenty good enough for most of us. My "theater" is in our family room, which is far from a perfect space for audio. I use analog for Blu-ray and an SACD/DVD-Audio player. The setups for both players work fine in our room.

The last piece is adding the right amount of boost for the subwoofer in the receiver. LFE is recorded 10db lower than its proper playback level and it drops another 5db when bass management is engaged. So, you need to boost the sub for the analog inputs by 10db-15db in your receiver to get good bass response. Most newer AVRs have settings to boost the sub by 10db. Getting the extra 5db is a problem with many receivers. But, there are ways to squeeze that out, too. You can always simply turn up the volume on the sub itself. But, that would mean too much bass for your digital inputs. So, it's not the recommended way to go.

There's no question that proper analog setup is more work than simply plugging in an HDMI cable and using your receiver's calibration. But, it's really not very difficult and it pays great dividends. It'll take an hour or two and some tweaking off and on over the next week to get everything set the way you want. That beats spending more than a grand to replace an otherwise perfectly fine receiver just to get HDMI.

But, it is also true that lossy DD and DTS over optical sound great - some say every bit as good as the lossless codecs. BD allows DD and DTS to be encoded at higher bit rates than you get on DVD. Personally, I prefer lossless, which I find to be a bit cleaner and more detailed. But, the differences are subtle and I'm not sure I would pass a blind test between the two.

Originally Posted by singhcr

There is no difference in calibration of a receiver using analog inputs versus HDMI inputs other than possibly having to boost the LFE gain.

That is not true. As explained above, none of the AVR's digital calibration is used for the analog inputs.

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

There is more to bass management than just boosting the LFE signal. You got to set the speaker sizes and crossover points too. So how do you do that if the AVR doesn't do it on analog inputs? Some BD players that have analog outputs might have bass management especially very expensive ones. Those I have used were very limited in bass management and didn't do much better than none at all.

This strikes me as overstated. The Denon 3800BDCI and its Marantz twin are the only two BD players with excellent speaker processing. But, all BD players with 5.1 analog outputs offer bass management and most offer time delays. The bass management is cruder than it should be - generally a fixed crossover at 100Hz for any speaker designated as small. But, I think player bass management is adequate for most situations.

Originally Posted by narsibvl

In my situation, that fact that i need a 7.1 to a 5.1 converters compounds the issue...

?? There's no converter involved. You merely tell the player you have a 5.1 system when you set it up and it downmixes any 7.1 disc to 5.1. There aren't many 7.1 discs, btw. Also, downmixing doesn't mean loss of quality. It just means the audio for the rear channels is folded into the surrounds.

[narsibvl]

Thanks guys for your inputs.

I think i will just go with the panny 35 or sony 350 for the time being, use the toslink and then when i have saved enuf will replace my 7 year old receiver with a hdmi high end, that way i save a lot of time.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by narsibvl

Thanks guys for your inputs.

I think i will just go with the panny 35 or sony 350 for the time being, use the toslink and then when i have saved enuf will replace my 7 year old receiver with a hdmi high end, that way i save a lot of time.

Understandable. But, these posts make the process sound more difficult than it is.

The analog set-ups are actually pretty straightforward and the calibration tools in the players are plenty good enough for most of us. For me, a few hours of time and $20 on audio cables beats spending a grand on another AVR.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by narsibvl

Thanks guys for your inputs.

I think i will just go with the panny 35 or sony 350 for the time being, use the toslink and then when i have saved enuf will replace my 7 year old receiver with a hdmi high end, that way i save a lot of time.

You can't go wrong with either of those. I am going to replace my Sony S301 player with one of those too depending on which one is cheaper on or after Black Friday. My S301 doesn't decode or bitstream DTS-HD MA. Both of those players bitstream DTS-HD MA.

I replaced my four year old receiver with a Yamaha. I am very happy with it even though it's not high end. If you want a high end HDMI AVR, Marantz makes some that decode all the lossless audio codecs. Analog audio is not any better than HDMI or vice versa. It makes no difference which does the decoding the player or the AVR. What will make a difference are the DACs (digital to analog converters). When the AVR does the decoding you are using its DACs which I would expect to be of excellent quality in high end equipment.

Not only will HDMI save you time in setup, but space also. With that one cable you are replacing the 8 analog audio cables that you would use to connect your player to your old receiver for a 7.1 system.