PS3 Upsampling - Linear PCM 7.1 Ch. @ 176.4 kHz

[kingofgrills]

First off, I want to say this is a lingering question I've had for quite a while that I've never seen addressed in the forums. I searched the forums and came up empty, so I apologize if this has been brought up before.

The PS3 via HDMI decodes and upsamples and outputs linear PCM soundtracks of 7.1 Channels at 176.4 kHz. Are there any other players that decode and upsample like this, or are there any receivers that upsample lossless audio bitstreams to 176.4 kHz or even 192kHz?

I'm not trying to start a standalone vs PS3 war, or a bitstream vs decode debate. I'm simply trying to see if there are a) any improvements by upsampling, b) other players that do this, or c) other player/receiver combinations that offer higher audio resolution.

[ozzman]

Bump

[kingofgrills]

Thanks, Ozz. I guess I'll bump it again to see if anyone responds.

Anyone? Bueller?

[Deimos]

a) any improvements by upsampling
No.

48kHz allows to bring you all the frequencies you can hear, and a lot more that you can't. So going beyond 48Khz, can't give you a better sound. Moreover, in the worsts scenarios could introduce artifacts.

b) other players that do this
No idea.

c) other player/receiver combinations that offer higher audio resolution.
Think that you're not getting higher audio resolution than the one is recorded in the Blu-ray disc, so it's all up to a powerful amplification, good speakers and of course an acoustically controlled room.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Deimos

a) any improvements by upsampling
No.

48kHz allows to bring you all the frequencies you can hear, and a lot more that you can't. So going beyond 48Khz, can't give you a better sound. Moreover, in the worsts scenarios could introduce artifacts.

It can also improve jitter from 16/44.1, so yes there can be improvements.

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

First off, I want to say this is a lingering question I've had for quite a while that I've never seen addressed in the forums. I searched the forums and came up empty, so I apologize if this has been brought up before.

The PS3 via HDMI decodes and upsamples and outputs linear PCM soundtracks of 7.1 Channels at 176.4 kHz. Are there any other players that decode and upsample like this, or are there any receivers that upsample lossless audio bitstreams to 176.4 kHz or even 192kHz?

I'm not trying to start a standalone vs PS3 war, or a bitstream vs decode debate. I'm simply trying to see if there are a) any improvements by upsampling, b) other players that do this, or c) other player/receiver combinations that offer higher audio resolution.

It doesn't upsample 7.1 tracks to 176.4, it outputs them at whatever the resolution of the source is. A 7.1 24/48 soundtrack is output at 24/48.

It can upsample 2.0 CD 16/44.1 tracks to 176.4Hz, but it's only 7.1 flagged on the receiver if you have the 7.1 output checked, it doesn't actually output 7.1 - it's still outputting 2.0 stereo.

When I listen to a CD on the PS3 I uncheck all the 5.1 and 7.1 options so that it correctly flags 2-channel stereo, thus the receiver doesn't send a blank static signal to my other speakers.

[Deimos]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

It can also improve jitter from 16/44.1, so yes there can be improvements.

Sorry, I don't believe in "Jitter ghosts".

[Clark Kent]

The sound quality of 44.1 kHz digital audio data can be dramatically improved by employing a “poor” oversampling digital anti-imaging filter having a slow roll-off in place of a “good” digital filter having a fast roll-off and a high stop band attenuation. It was shown that the ultrasonic images output by this “poor” filter is responsible for the improved sound quality, reducing certain forms of non-linear distortion such as that due to the differential non-linearity found in all DACs. There may very well be other, subtler, forms of non-linear distortion in DACs, which may also be reduced by signal-dependent ultrasonic dither.

In any case, there are certainly many other sources of non-linear distortion present in the signal chain. Some may question how such a small reduction in non-linear distortion due to differential non-linearity in DACs can be heard when much larger non-linear distortions are generated by loudspeakers, for example. The answer is that the non-linear distortions in question, like jitter-induced non-linearities, are uniquely digital in origin. Such digital distortions have no counterpart in the analog domain. It can be argued that human hearing is much more sensitive to certain digital forms of distortion as compared to the more common distortions of analog origin. For example, it is widely recognized that very low levels of jitter are audible even in the presence of much larger levels of harmonic distortion generated by loudspeakers.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by kingofgrills

First off, I want to say this is a lingering question I've had for quite a while that I've never seen addressed in the forums. I searched the forums and came up empty, so I apologize if this has been brought up before.

The PS3 via HDMI decodes and upsamples and outputs linear PCM soundtracks of 7.1 Channels at 176.4 kHz. Are there any other players that decode and upsample like this, or are there any receivers that upsample lossless audio bitstreams to 176.4 kHz or even 192kHz?

I'm not trying to start a standalone vs PS3 war, or a bitstream vs decode debate. I'm simply trying to see if there are a) any improvements by upsampling, b) other players that do this, or c) other player/receiver combinations that offer higher audio resolution.

HTPC's with the Vista operating system are able to do this - easily!!! And yes there is an audible difference.

[prerich]

The issue of artifacts beinig introduced is due to anti-aliasing. I however, have not noticed any audible artifacts introduced into my upsampled output on cd's and bd's (My Yamaha currently says my sampling frequency is 192khz from my HTPC input - I tested this while playing music and BD's, I'm currently upsampling to 24bit/192khz). My ears are happy so - I see no current problem with it - but physics don't lie - there can be very obvious artifacts introduced - I have yet to hear any in my system, knock on wood .

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

The sound quality of 44.1 kHz digital audio data can be dramatically improved by employing a “poor” oversampling digital anti-imaging filter having a slow roll-off in place of a “good” digital filter having a fast roll-off and a high stop band attenuation. It was shown that the ultrasonic images output by this “poor” filter is responsible for the improved sound quality, reducing certain forms of non-linear distortion such as that due to the differential non-linearity found in all DACs. There may very well be other, subtler, forms of non-linear distortion in DACs, which may also be reduced by signal-dependent ultrasonic dither.

In any case, there are certainly many other sources of non-linear distortion present in the signal chain. Some may question how such a small reduction in non-linear distortion due to differential non-linearity in DACs can be heard when much larger non-linear distortions are generated by loudspeakers, for example. The answer is that the non-linear distortions in question, like jitter-induced non-linearities, are uniquely digital in origin. Such digital distortions have no counterpart in the analog domain. It can be argued that human hearing is much more sensitive to certain digital forms of distortion as compared to the more common distortions of analog origin. For example, it is widely recognized that very low levels of jitter are audible even in the presence of much larger levels of harmonic distortion generated by loudspeakers.

Excellent post!

[kingofgrills]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

It can also improve jitter from 16/44.1, so yes there can be improvements.




It doesn't upsample 7.1 tracks to 176.4, it outputs them at whatever the resolution of the source is. A 7.1 24/48 soundtrack is output at 24/48.

It can upsample 2.0 CD 16/44.1 tracks to 176.4Hz, but it's only 7.1 flagged on the receiver if you have the 7.1 output checked, it doesn't actually output 7.1 - it's still outputting 2.0 stereo.

When I listen to a CD on the PS3 I uncheck all the 5.1 and 7.1 options so that it correctly flags 2-channel stereo, thus the receiver doesn't send a blank static signal to my other speakers.

You're correct. Blu-ray 5.1 and 7.1 lossless soundtracks feed through as recorded. I wrote this with CD and SACD playback on my brain. You don't need to uncheck 5.1 and 7.1 channel options when playing back CDs with the PS3 though, because it will upsample CDs to 2.0 channels at 176.4 kHz without issue. 5.1 channel SACDs have the DSD track decoded internally and fed through at 176.4 kHz LPCM. I really wish the PS3 bitstreamed the DSD code to my receiver, but the LPCM conversion sounds great too.