DLP vs. SXRD...Which Is Better?

[Ascended_Saiyan]

DLPs and SXRDs have both established themselves as great display technologies. Both first-gen 1080p models were plaqued with reliability issues. Both technologies have rebounded well with their second-gen 1080p units. These light-heavyweights match up well against each other. Now, the question is which one will walk away with the light-heavyweight rear display technology championship of the world!

Since I'm typing on the PS3, I will need to make two posts. The second post will be some know and unknown stats about each technology. If I miss some stats, please add them in your post followed by why you think one is better than the other (or the same).

Getting started...
DLP achieves 1080p through wobulation (basically 1080i/120fps). It has over 1 million mirrors that shifts back and forth to fool the human eye into thinking there are 2 million pixels on the screen at one time. 1080i/120fps (120 half frames per sec.) still falls under 60 full frames per sec. Therefore DLPs achieves Full 1080p status.

[nhaase]

I know you said you'll have two posts, but I can say that for some people, like me, DLP cannot be enjoyed. Even on the newest models, I can see the rainbow effect, because I have excellent eyesight. Pretty much everyone I know doesn't see this, but for me, I have to have LCoS (SXRD).

[The Don]

Originally Posted by nhaase

I know you said you'll have two posts, but I can say that for some people, like me, DLP cannot be enjoyed. Even on the newest models, I can see the rainbow effect, because I have excellent eyesight. Pretty much everyone I know doesn't see this, but for me, I have to have LCoS (SXRD).

I agree...my eyes are pretty much in HD..

I notice this as well....

[Ascended_Saiyan]

SXRD (LCoS) achieves 1080p through 3 liquid crystal panels with a mirror behind it. Each panel represent the full 2 million pixels at all times.

DLP response times are usually not mentioned, but they are in the micro-secs. (around 50 or so). I believe this is the fastest response time in displays. I think Plasma displays are next at .5 milli-sec.
SXRD response times are around 2.5 milli-secs.

DLP has a lot more moving parts than SXRD. DLP has a device to show 1 million pixels on half the screen and switches to display a different 1 million pixels on the other half of the screen. Plus, the micro-mirrors and the color wheel moves (unless using colored LEDs as light source like some of the new Samsungs).

DLPs have a 90% fill rate. SXRD has a greater than 92% fill rate.

I will let others add to this list of points. But for me, the moving parts, color banding issues and fill rates were the main reasons for going SXRD. That's my vote.

[dakota81]

Originally Posted by nhaase

I know you said you'll have two posts, but I can say that for some people, like me, DLP cannot be enjoyed. Even on the newest models, I can see the rainbow effect, because I have excellent eyesight. Pretty much everyone I know doesn't see this, but for me, I have to have LCoS (SXRD).

Samsung eliminated the rainbow effect with their LED DLPs. I've heard they've fixed many of the faults when making their second generation models that came out just recently (reduced color banding, and darker blacks). I've got the '06 LED DLP model and I do believe LED is the future of DLP, everything about it is a great advantage. I only wish I could upgrade to the '07 model. Most everything on my DLP looks great, but there are a few things that are unwatchable, like the movie Dark City for one, should be fine in the '07 HL-T models.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

SXRD (LCoS) achieves 1080p through 3 liquid crystal panels with a mirror behind it. Each panel represent the full 2 million pixels at all times.

DLP response times are usually not mentioned, but they are in the micro-secs. (around 50 or so). I believe this is the fastest response time in displays. I think Plasma displays are next at .5 milli-sec.
SXRD response times are around 2.5 milli-secs.

DLP has a lot more moving parts than SXRD. DLP has a device to show 1 million pixels on half the screen and switches to display a different 1 million pixels on the other half of the screen. Plus, the micro-mirrors and the color wheel moves (unless using colored LEDs as light source like some of the new Samsungs).

DLPs have a 90% fill rate. SXRD has a greater than 92% fill rate.

I will let others add to this list of points. But for me, the moving parts, color banding issues and fill rates were the main reasons for going SXRD. That's my vote.

After doing research those are the reasons I went with the SXRD over the Sammy DLP..reliability being the big one for me. The DLP just seemed to be begging for a quicker failure rate based on the moving parts. And at $3000 CND I'd like my investment to last as long as possible. These were 2006 models.

[nhaase]

Originally Posted by dakota81

Samsung eliminated the rainbow effect with their LED DLPs. I've heard they've fixed many of the faults when making their second generation models that came out just recently (reduced color banding, and darker blacks). I've got the '06 LED DLP model and I do believe LED is the future of DLP, everything about it is a great advantage. I only wish I could upgrade to the '07 model. Most everything on my DLP looks great, but there are a few things that are unwatchable, like the movie Dark City for one, should be fine in the '07 HL-T models.

The LEDs still fire sequentially, not simultaneously, from what I have read. I don't know if I've looked at this too much, since I gave on DLPs once I couldn't stop seeing the rainbow effect.

Also, LED is not the future of DLP, in my opinion. Lasers are the future. Instead of any light source which puts light on the entire DLP chip at all times, 3 lasers (red, green, and blue, of course) replace the lamp and color wheel. They are all on at the same time, and they only put their light where it is needed. The lasers also give the deepest, purest color, when made correctly. So, you will get the richest colors and deepest blacks, since it acts like a CRT and blacks just get no light. The lasers also use much less power, and the sets can be thin enough to wall-mount. I will be waiting until I get out of grad school before I buy another TV, but if this technology pans out, this is the type of front projector I'll buy for my theater room.



Note: I bought the JVC 56" LCoS (they call it HD-ILA, same as SXRD). I like that it has the manually and automatically adjusted iris.

[clyon]

DLP: cons
wobulation
Color wheel (moving parts)
Rainbows
Limeted LED model & price on the LED model

SXRD: cons
SSE
price


No matter what brand you get, get an extened warranty.

Rainbows have NOTHING to do with on how good your eyes are!!!

[Spankey]

I will let others add to this list of points. But for me, the moving parts, color banding issues and fill rates were the main reasons for going SXRD. That's my vote.

Ditto

[dakota81]

Originally Posted by nhaase

The LEDs still fire sequentially, not simultaneously, from what I have read. I don't know if I've looked at this too much, since I gave on DLPs once I couldn't stop seeing the rainbow effect.

Also, LED is not the future of DLP, in my opinion. Lasers are the future.

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/pro...LEDOptics.jpeg
Here's the diagram of the Samsung LED light engine, looks like the light from the LEDs are combined before being sent to the tv. Either way, the rainbow effect is caused by the rotating color wheel, which the LED sets do not have, that's the important thing.

I'm not up on what's in the future, I just know that the LED sets that are available now should soon take over the lamp based sets, as pretty much every aspect of the technology is better than the lamp & color wheels.

[phloyd]

If there is a single panel in the engine, it will have colour separation artifacts.

The LED set I saw at CES 2006 was very good for colour separation but had awful grey scale performance.

CES 2007 the LED sets had better grey scales but at the cost of worse colour separation (so I am guessing that they slowed the colour switching to get better dynamic range at the cost of worse colour issues).

The other advantage LCoS (SXRD, DILA) has over DLP is that the native response of the LC is more like the desired gamma where DLP is exactly linear - so the LCoS has more effective low grey levels.

Keep in mind the I work in the displays so I am not necessarily unbiased.

That said I think DLPs are awful, mostly due to the colour separation artifact. If you can see colours for a black and white source, you can see this issue. So take your BD of Good Night and Good Luck when you shop for a TV IMHO, the Sony SXRDs are the best RPTVs on the market today for overall picture quality (and no I don't work for Sony).

[nhaase]

Originally Posted by clyon

Rainbows have NOTHING to do with on how good your eyes are!!!

If you can show me proof, I'll look at it and, if it's reliable and scientific, accept it, but I disagree. The wheel is supposed to spin fast enough so the time between colors being displayed is so short that your eyes can't tell the difference. The only problem is that people with very keen eyesight can pick up that lag. When watching TV with the rest of my family, at moments where it happens I'll rewind and ask them if they saw it (I did this quite a bit when we first got the TV, thinking something was wrong with it and it was not just my eyes), and they cannot see it. I'm the only one of my immediate family who doesn't need corrective lenses. Why do you think people with corrective eyewear can't fly fighter jets? I know other factors are involved, but when you're traveling over 700mph your eyes must be able to pick up and discern objects very quickly.

[nhaase]

Originally Posted by dakota81

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/pro...LEDOptics.jpeg
Here's the diagram of the Samsung LED light engine, looks like the light from the LEDs are combined before being sent to the tv. Either way, the rainbow effect is caused by the rotating color wheel, which the LED sets do not have, that's the important thing.

I'm not up on what's in the future, I just know that the LED sets that are available now should soon take over the lamp based sets, as pretty much every aspect of the technology is better than the lamp & color wheels.

I'll say this is better than the color wheel, but from what I read, the LEDs are still activated at different times, which is the main thing: the colors go up in succession, not simultaneously.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by nhaase

I'll say this is better than the color wheel, but from what I read, the LEDs are still activated at different times, which is the main thing: the colors go up in succession, not simultaneously.

If you only have one panel, the colours have to be sequential to be independent.

[buckshot]

i love my samsung dlp. i saw it right next to an sxrd at circuit city when i bought it. i checked to make sure they were both hooked up using the same cables from the same source etc. i think that price is the ultimate placebo for audio and videophiles. people here will talk about how great their eyesight or hearing is and thats why they need $100 a foot speakerwire or in this case an sxrd instead of a dlp. i can see very well, example i hate tube flourescent lights because i can see the "pulse" of electricity that moves through it and causes the chemicals to illuminate. i can also hear bettery chargers of every kind, this kind of high pitched ringing. (yes i have been tested by my doctor as well)


if you had never heard of "wobbulation" you never would have tricked your mind into thinking you saw a difference. just like spending all that money on cables and wires that offer no difference that can be heard by the human ear. the mirrors at the back of a dlp move so impossibly quick that there is no way you can tell. perhaps is should use my camera and take pictures at increasing shutter speeds to see at what point it can detect wobulation. i think a lot of people just see wobulation as "cheating" a way to 1080p.

that being said, i think that sxrd does have the advantage of no moving parts.

[Josh]

I saw rainbows with DLP, so that wasn't an option. I honestly think most people do, they just don't recognize it as a problem with the display. But once you see them, it ruins it completely.

I went with SXRD because it does everything I need (1080p) at a low cost entry point (relative to LCD or Plasma). I love my SXRD.

[WriteSimply]

I see the rainbow effect on anything DLP. I've even noticed it on a high-end Pioneer plasma, which I don't think was possible, but there you go (and I was not the only person to see it).

A three-chip DLP or LCos implementation with either RGB lights or lasers is the next best option for a really high contrast ratio. Of course, those are super expensive. Might as well wait for SED or OLED.


fuad

[nhaase]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

I see the rainbow effect on anything DLP. I've even noticed it on a high-end Pioneer plasma, which I don't think was possible, but there you go (and I was not the only person to see it).

A three-chip DLP or LCos implementation with either RGB lights or lasers is the next best option for a really high contrast ratio. Of course, those are super expensive. Might as well wait for SED or OLED.


fuad

The laser dlp's won't have this problem, as all three colors go up at the same time, like the CRT projection TVs.

[Zaphod]

Beware of Rainbow Raider, raiding in on your DLP...

[HDViewer]

Originally Posted by clyon

Rainbows have NOTHING to do with on how good your eyes are!!!

He is right, the rainbow effect has nothing to do with your eyes. It's how a persons BRAIN processes color information that causes someone to see rainbows.

As we know, DLP's have color wheels that consist of a thin disc with transparent color sections for Red, Green, and Blue. The color wheel rotates at a fixed rate of speed so that the processor knows what color is going to be displayed on the chip. The chip forms the correct images according to the color being passed( R,G,B ). As each color section rotates into the light path produced from the lamp the images are projected on screen sequentially.

The color wheel is based on the principles of persistence of vision. Which is the same principle that is used for TV and film to depict movement. The problem with the color wheel is that everyone processes color information differently and some people are not fooled by the color wheels attempt to "trick" the mind into thinking they are seeing a full colored image. For average schleps like myself, this is not a problem but for some who have acute color perception, those individuals are not fooled by the sequential colors being displayed in quick succession and can recognize that what they are seeing are individual colored images.

I must say that I love my DLP. The only problem I have had with it is the lamp burned out before the 1 year warranty expired so it was covered under warranty and Toshiba said it was caused by faulty lamp designs. You should get 3000-5000 hours from a single lamp. If you go to Toshiba's site they have extended the warranty an extra year and have replaced the faulty lamps with better designed lamps that last longer. Contrast ratio on my set is 5000:1, which when I bought my set was top of the line. There are some occassional grey banding issues and I need to turn off the lights to truly enjoy a movie as glare can effect your viewing but I like going to theaters so this is no big deal to me. I have had my DLP for more than 2 years and it is continuing to serve me well into next gen. From what I also understand is that not all DLP's are the same and some brands I would not recommend due to the poor quality and manufacturing of some.

I compared all available HDTV's on the market two years ago and based on the available features that I was looking for (2 HDMI, Component, Optical out, 1080p, etc) the Toshiba had the best picture/price point I could find. The good thing about wobulation is that even though technologically it is not cutting edge, with the color wheel and mirrors, it actually produces a decent PQ in both SD and HD which greatly influenced my decision.

I recently compared the 42" 1080p Sharp Aquos LCD to my Toshiba DLP and for my everyday use, that is; SD, HD, DVD upcoverted to 1080i, the DLP won out. Even when I used my PS3 and view BD movies the DLP does a great job. The Sharp on the other hand is made for 1080p so when I hook it up to watch my satellite SD channels the PQ is poor because of the artifacts and pixelization that it distinctly displays and it doesn't handle my upconverted DVD's well either as the pixels are more prominent while the DLP produces a slightly softer image but with just as much detail to my liking. The Sharp also produces better black with its 10000:1 contrast ratio, which means for me watching it in direct sunlight with all my lights on. So for the multitude of formats the DLP is my choice because it produces the best overall PQ no matter what I watch. I have heard lots of people complain that SD is just unwatchable on their new 1080p LCD or plasma. I thank wobulation for allowing my to still enjoy my hundreds of SD channels.

For someone looking to buy their first HDTV on a budget, definately check out DLP's and if you don't see rainbows then I would recommend them for their versatility in this transition from SD to HD. Newer generation DLP's are supposed to have faster fill rates which is supposed to eliminate the rainbow effect but I never had a problem so I can't confirm this.

Once everything goes 1080 and we do away with SD and DVD in the next few years my Aquos will definately get more use and of course I'm looking forward to LED technology as well.