Blu-Ray Tech - Blu-ray Forum

drgonzo1969 · 06-01-2007, 11:21 AM

Hi There,

As a recent visitor to this website (the most comprehensive i've seen so far) i have a few questions about the Blu-Ray format, perhaps you can help me. I am about to dive into the foray of 'Hi-Def Home Cinema' but am having problems getting the right answers.

• Is MPEG4 the best encoding and MPEG2 the worst, also where in the scale does VC1 and AVC fit in?

• As i live here in the UK, are all U.S. Blu-ray discs 'Region Free', the U.S. ones are cheaper than the U.K. counterparts.

• Would there be any visible difference in quality between a Blu-Ray encoded U.S. disc and something encoded here in the U.K.?

• Could i get a modified Blu-Ray player in the U.K. if 'Region Coding' is or becomes an issue with U.S. discs?

• Would i be better waiting until 2008 before i invest my hard earned cash as there appears to be some Hardware and Software issues regarding the Blu-Ray format here?

Filterlab · 06-01-2007, 01:20 PM

Hi and welcome! Nice to have another UK member.

• Is MPEG4 the best encoding and MPEG2 the worst, also where in the scale does VC1 and AVC fit in? Not sure on this one myself, but I know a man who is - I just can't remember the spelling of his username. Deculiazado or something or other?!

• As i live here in the UK, are all U.S. Blu-ray discs 'Region Free', the U.S. ones are cheaper than the U.K. counterparts. BDs from Warner and a couple of other studios are region free, but most are region coded. Yes, the US ones are cheaper at the mo but the technology's been in the US longer than the UK. They will come down.

• Would there be any visible difference in quality between a Blu-Ray encoded U.S. disc and something encoded here in the U.K.? I have Planet Earth which is a US only (uncoded) BD and it's absolutely superb. It's the same technology used all around the world and the quality is really only dependent on coding rate and type

• Could i get a modified Blu-Ray player in the U.K. if 'Region Coding' is or becomes an issue with U.S. discs? No region free yet on Blu-ray machines, but that won't take long I'm sure - just as it didn't with DVD.

• Would i be better waiting until 2008 before i invest my hard earned cash as there appears to be some Hardware and Software issues regarding the Blu-Ray format here? Other than HDMI 1.3 (which can transfer a full 7 channels of lossless audio PCM) there's no real hardware/software issues. OK there may be the odd glitch here and there, but the manufacturers are continually introducing firmware updates with alarming frequency. Get one, you won't be disappointed.

haiku_aubade · 06-01-2007, 01:26 PM

from what i know (though i'm not well knowledged in this area) the codecs from worst to best are:

MPEG2
VC-1
MPEG4/AVC

i think that's right but correct me if i'm wrong

drgonzo1969 · 06-01-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filterlab

Hi and welcome! Nice to have another UK member.

• Is MPEG4 the best encoding and MPEG2 the worst, also where in the scale does VC1 and AVC fit in? Not sure on this one myself, but I know a man who is - I just can't remember the spelling of his username. Deculiazado or something or other?!

• As i live here in the UK, are all U.S. Blu-ray discs 'Region Free', the U.S. ones are cheaper than the U.K. counterparts. BDs from Warner and a couple of other studios are region free, but most are region coded. Yes, the US ones are cheaper at the mo but the technology's been in the US longer than the UK. They will come down.

• Would there be any visible difference in quality between a Blu-Ray encoded U.S. disc and something encoded here in the U.K.? I have Planet Earth which is a US only (uncoded) BD and it's absolutely superb. It's the same technology used all around the world and the quality is really only dependent on coding rate and type

• Could i get a modified Blu-Ray player in the U.K. if 'Region Coding' is or becomes an issue with U.S. discs? No region free yet on Blu-ray machines, but that won't take long I'm sure - just as it didn't with DVD.

• Would i be better waiting until 2008 before i invest my hard earned cash as there appears to be some Hardware and Software issues regarding the Blu-Ray format here? Other than HDMI 1.3 (which can transfer a full 7 channels of lossless audio PCM) there's no real hardware/software issues. OK there may be the odd glitch here and there, but the manufacturers are continually introducing firmware updates with alarming frequency. Get one, you won't be disappointed.

Hello Filterlab,

What a prompt reply!

Thats very helpful. I don't know what it is about Home Cinema specialists here (Up North) in West Yorkshire. Dealers don't seem to have a Blu-Ray machine running to show me, its not like they've just been released. I want to get Hellboy on Blu-ray as a disc for me to carry to see on demo's, its only £14 on play.com, is it MPEG4 do you know, the U.S. disc is.

Cheers ;-)

drgonzo1969 · 06-01-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haiku_aubade

from what i know (though i'm not well knowledged in this area) the codecs from worst to best are:

MPEG2
VC-1
MPEG4/AVC

i think that's right but correct me if i'm wrong

Hello Haiku,

Thanks for that info, you may be right i think, Blu-Ray disc prices are dropping i notice. DVD prices are dropping also too.

Thanks ;-)

weezlewozzle · 06-01-2007, 02:59 PM

AVC is the codec used for MPEG4, so in this context they are referring to the same thing.

Both VC-1 and AVC have a long way to go with encoder development to get the best out of each codec, so I don't think you can say one is better than the other except in theory. I'm sure there are some people on this forum who can give more informed opinions on which will be best in the long run.

Filterlab · 06-01-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgonzo1969

..Dealers don't seem to have a Blu-Ray machine running to show me, its not like they've just been released...

Isn't much better down in the smoke to be honest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drgonzo1969

Hellboy...is it MPEG4 do you know?...

Yes, AVC MPEG-4 according to the highdefdigest page.

MrBogey · 06-01-2007, 03:35 PM

"Worst" is a qualitative word. MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 are all capable of the same results if proper attention and care is given.

All BD's have region coding enabled but I believe few of them are region locked.

The only software update that matters is the allowance of BD-J and BD+ both of which will be out by the fall and shouldn't be an issue to most of the newer players IIRC.

Deciazulado · 06-01-2007, 10:36 PM

AVC = MPEG-4 part 10 = H.264

VC-1 and AVC are advanced modern codecs with better efficiency (can compress more w/o losing as much quality) and have some more features.

MPEG-2 has been used and optimized for many years now.

Related to codecs is how high or low the bit-rate used for the transfer so one could do a low bit-rate modern codec transfer that doesn't look better than a high bit-rate older codec so the above is if all else remains equal.

Here's a thread about regions that can tell you more than I can on a single post

If they use the same transfer there won't be no difference between the US/UK discs. movies in Blu-ray are in 1080 x 1920 24p, no PAL/NTSC 576/480 50i/60i differences.

--

Well if you can wait and not buy any new releases DVDs till 2008 you might save some money and get newer players/receivers/displays
But you'll be without high definition movies for a time. That's up to you.

drgonzo1969 · 06-04-2007, 09:15 AM

Hi There,

Thanks for that information, its just what i was looking for. I have ordered a couple of discs i know are MPEG4 to carry with me so i can see them demonstrated on the players and Plasmas i want to buy.

drgonzo1969 · 06-04-2007, 09:16 AM

Hello,

Thanks for replying, solid info there, its helped me a lot.

Cheers

gand41f · 06-04-2007, 10:06 AM

I wouldn't say MPEG-2 is the worst in general...just not as efficient in extremely bit-starved conditions.

With proper care, MPEG-2 can produce stunning results...Kingdom of Heaven and Black Hawk Down (both of which I've watched repeatedly) are proof enough for that. Those are BD-50's, but the BD-25 Mission: Impossible 3 look pretty good too.

AVC so far hasn't produced any bad transfers that I've seen (Casino Royale, Chicken Little, Curse of the Golden Flower come to mind). I'm extremely impressed with what it did with Curse of the Golden Flower, that movie should have been extremely hard to encode.

VC-1 seems to produce a slightly "filtered" look, which I don't like very much. It works fine when there is not much movement (like the slow pans of scenery in Planet Earth) but when there's lots of moving pixels, I feel like there's some details that are being lost. I felt the same while watching The Queen and The Fountain, for instance...some stunning static shots, with some blurry moving shots.

I prefer the gory "filmy" look of MPEG-2 or MPEG-4. The grainy look of Black Hawk Down...that's what movies are all about.

just my opinion of course
gandalf

06-01-2007, 11:21 AM	#1
drgonzo1969 Junior Member Member since:Jun 2007	Blu-Ray Tech Hi There, As a recent visitor to this website (the most comprehensive i've seen so far) i have a few questions about the Blu-Ray format, perhaps you can help me. I am about to dive into the foray of 'Hi-Def Home Cinema' but am having problems getting the right answers. • Is MPEG4 the best encoding and MPEG2 the worst, also where in the scale does VC1 and AVC fit in? • As i live here in the UK, are all U.S. Blu-ray discs 'Region Free', the U.S. ones are cheaper than the U.K. counterparts. • Would there be any visible difference in quality between a Blu-Ray encoded U.S. disc and something encoded here in the U.K.? • Could i get a modified Blu-Ray player in the U.K. if 'Region Coding' is or becomes an issue with U.S. discs? • Would i be better waiting until 2008 before i invest my hard earned cash as there appears to be some Hardware and Software issues regarding the Blu-Ray format here?

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06-01-2007, 01:20 PM	#2
Filterlab Senior Member Member since:Mar 2007 Location:East Molesey, Surrey, UK	Hi and welcome! Nice to have another UK member. • Is MPEG4 the best encoding and MPEG2 the worst, also where in the scale does VC1 and AVC fit in? Not sure on this one myself, but I know a man who is - I just can't remember the spelling of his username. Deculiazado or something or other?! • As i live here in the UK, are all U.S. Blu-ray discs 'Region Free', the U.S. ones are cheaper than the U.K. counterparts. BDs from Warner and a couple of other studios are region free, but most are region coded. Yes, the US ones are cheaper at the mo but the technology's been in the US longer than the UK. They will come down. • Would there be any visible difference in quality between a Blu-Ray encoded U.S. disc and something encoded here in the U.K.? I have Planet Earth which is a US only (uncoded) BD and it's absolutely superb. It's the same technology used all around the world and the quality is really only dependent on coding rate and type • Could i get a modified Blu-Ray player in the U.K. if 'Region Coding' is or becomes an issue with U.S. discs? No region free yet on Blu-ray machines, but that won't take long I'm sure - just as it didn't with DVD. • Would i be better waiting until 2008 before i invest my hard earned cash as there appears to be some Hardware and Software issues regarding the Blu-Ray format here? Other than HDMI 1.3 (which can transfer a full 7 channels of lossless audio PCM) there's no real hardware/software issues. OK there may be the odd glitch here and there, but the manufacturers are continually introducing firmware updates with alarming frequency. Get one, you won't be disappointed.

06-01-2007, 01:26 PM	#3
haiku_aubade Active Member Member since:May 2007 Location:alpha centauri	from what i know (though i'm not well knowledged in this area) the codecs from worst to best are: MPEG2 VC-1 MPEG4/AVC i think that's right but correct me if i'm wrong

06-01-2007, 02:59 PM	#6
weezlewozzle Member Member since:May 2007	AVC is the codec used for MPEG4, so in this context they are referring to the same thing. Both VC-1 and AVC have a long way to go with encoder development to get the best out of each codec, so I don't think you can say one is better than the other except in theory. I'm sure there are some people on this forum who can give more informed opinions on which will be best in the long run.

06-01-2007, 03:35 PM	#8
MrBogey Expert Member Member since:Jan 2007	"Worst" is a qualitative word. MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 are all capable of the same results if proper attention and care is given. All BD's have region coding enabled but I believe few of them are region locked. The only software update that matters is the allowance of BD-J and BD+ both of which will be out by the fall and shouldn't be an issue to most of the newer players IIRC.

06-01-2007, 10:36 PM	#9
Deciazulado Site Manager Top contributor Member since:Aug 2006 Location:USiberia Home Theater Gallery:6 4K collection:1159 Blu-ray collection:7044 DVD collection:4040	AVC = MPEG-4 part 10 = H.264 VC-1 and AVC are advanced modern codecs with better efficiency (can compress more w/o losing as much quality) and have some more features. MPEG-2 has been used and optimized for many years now. Related to codecs is how high or low the bit-rate used for the transfer so one could do a low bit-rate modern codec transfer that doesn't look better than a high bit-rate older codec so the above is if all else remains equal. Here's a thread about regions that can tell you more than I can on a single post If they use the same transfer there won't be no difference between the US/UK discs. movies in Blu-ray are in 1080 x 1920 24p, no PAL/NTSC 576/480 50i/60i differences. -- Well if you can wait and not buy any new releases DVDs till 2008 you might save some money and get newer players/receivers/displays But you'll be without high definition movies for a time. That's up to you.

06-04-2007, 09:15 AM	#10
drgonzo1969 Junior Member Member since:Jun 2007	Hi There, Thanks for that information, its just what i was looking for. I have ordered a couple of discs i know are MPEG4 to carry with me so i can see them demonstrated on the players and Plasmas i want to buy.

06-04-2007, 09:16 AM	#11
drgonzo1969 Junior Member Member since:Jun 2007	Hello, Thanks for replying, solid info there, its helped me a lot. Cheers

06-04-2007, 10:06 AM	#12
gand41f Special Member Member since:May 2007 Location:San Jose, California	I wouldn't say MPEG-2 is the worst in general...just not as efficient in extremely bit-starved conditions. With proper care, MPEG-2 can produce stunning results...Kingdom of Heaven and Black Hawk Down (both of which I've watched repeatedly) are proof enough for that. Those are BD-50's, but the BD-25 Mission: Impossible 3 look pretty good too. AVC so far hasn't produced any bad transfers that I've seen (Casino Royale, Chicken Little, Curse of the Golden Flower come to mind). I'm extremely impressed with what it did with Curse of the Golden Flower, that movie should have been extremely hard to encode. VC-1 seems to produce a slightly "filtered" look, which I don't like very much. It works fine when there is not much movement (like the slow pans of scenery in Planet Earth) but when there's lots of moving pixels, I feel like there's some details that are being lost. I felt the same while watching The Queen and The Fountain, for instance...some stunning static shots, with some blurry moving shots. I prefer the gory "filmy" look of MPEG-2 or MPEG-4. The grainy look of Black Hawk Down...that's what movies are all about. just my opinion of course gandalf

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