Patton and The Longest Day - Blu-ray Forum

JRS03 · 05-19-2009, 01:50 PM

What is your position on these discs? I personally think they are two of the best looking Blu's (for older titles) out there. Bill Hunt over at the bits cant seem to stand them. He had an article today on the 'education" of the videophile and why he does not like these dics. That entry no longer seems to be on his site (as it was a few hours ago). I also can no longer find the reviews for each of these dics in the review section on his site. I just wanted to know what the general consensus is here at Blu Ray.com with regards to these discs.

Do we need to be educated? Or are my eyes deceiving me? On my 73" Mitsubishi they look great.

What says you?

Beta Man · 05-19-2009, 01:56 PM

many refer to the fact that DNR exists on these...... Patton looks great in my opinion as does the Longest Day... but I would prefer to have it with the grain left in tact.... but I enjoy watching them nonetheless, so that's my stance.

Blu Titan · 05-19-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Man

many refer to the fact that DNR exists on these...... Patton looks great in my opinion as does the Longest Day... but I would prefer to have it with the grain left in tact.... but I enjoy watching them nonetheless, so that's my stance.

I agree with your position. The dics make for a good watch.

JRS03 · 05-19-2009, 01:58 PM

Ok so what the deal with DNR? Making the image too soft? Losing the sharpness or detail? Ok....so whats everyone's beef with DNR? To me it looks like these films were shot digitally yesterday. Is it just a taste preference? Is it because there was grain in the film when they shot it a million years ago? Im just trying to understand all sides of this issue. Beta "why" would you prefer to have the grain left intact?

ScarredLungs · 05-19-2009, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Man

many refer to the fact that DNR exists on these...... Patton looks great in my opinion as does the Longest Day... but I would prefer to have it with the grain left in tact.... but I enjoy watching them nonetheless, so that's my stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blu Titan

I agree with your position. The dics make for a good watch.

Indeed I agree. Patton is a great movie.

Beta Man · 05-19-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRS03

Ok so what the deal with DNR? Making the image too soft? Losing the sharpness or detail? Ok....so whats everyone's beef with DNR? To me it looks like these films were shot digitally yesterday. Is it just a taste preference? Is it because there was grain in the film when they shot it a million years ago? Im just trying to understand all sides of this issue. Beta "why" would you prefer to have the grain left intact?

I prefer to have the grain in tact because you can't remove it all without removing some of the detail..... I also like to see the movie the way it was seen originally (with the grain)

The fact that there would be grain in these isn't because they were shot a million years ago..... it's because they were shot on film.... if you shoot these tomorrow, with new film cameras, there will be grain... Grain occurs because of the process used to develop the film (chemical reaction) anyways.... I don't find grain distracting.... it's really more of an "authentic" feel to me....

And this whole "Grain or no grain" thing came about, not because Blu-rays are all of a sudden refusing to remove/reduce it......

it's because with Standard definition, there wasn't enough resolution to be able to see the grain to begin with (it was always there.... you just didn't know it)

bhayden25 · 05-19-2009, 02:06 PM

I have seen Patton on VHS, DVD and now Blu-Ray an i can easily say that i have never seen Patton look this good. You would never guess that it's over 30yrs old

AKORIS · 05-19-2009, 02:37 PM

this is and endless debate-- I can see what some of the DNR haters are talking about-- there is a softness to the clarity of detail if it's applied too heavy-- I noticed it on DARK CITY a few times--

but the funny thing is I have PATTON-- I got close to the screen and was really trying to study this "atrocious transfer" that people were talking about--I was looking for a waxy George C. Scott on my 52" Bravia ........and I
just couldn't see it! The picture was outstanding to me-- the best I've ever
seen this title. If DNR provides a picture like this then that's fine with me--
I view it the same way as a "remaster"--- you're still cleaning up a print and making it cleaner. Before I get hatebombs-- I know there's a difference-- I
just don't "see" the controversy on PATTON....

I also think that PAN'S LABYRINTH looks fantastic-- another DNR applied title...

#Darren · 05-19-2009, 02:37 PM

A large amount of detail was lost because of the heavy DNR - end of story.

P@t_Mtl · 05-19-2009, 02:40 PM

I've only seen Patton (my brother is a huge fan of WW2 movies) and it does look pretty good. I haven't seen Longest Day as of yet but the reviews seen to show a very outstanding PQ.

AKORIS · 05-19-2009, 02:44 PM

I'd had something else-- Bill Hunt, who I trust on most every detail-- is
viewing his movies on a 100" TV Screen!!! Perhaps he is seeing things a lot
of people do not--- (which he has said repeatedly)

BaronVH · 05-19-2009, 02:44 PM

If you view these on a large display, say over 60" then you might have a problem. I have a 50" display and do not have problems with the image at all. I have seen comparisons that show lost details, and, while I wish the detail was there, it does not bother me about the image. Patton, however, still has the audio problem that was on the DVD. In the 5.1 mix there is a slight buzzing sound that can be annoying in the softer sounding scenes. That does bother me a little bit. Both of these movies look better than I have ever seen them before.

JRS03 · 05-19-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iDarren

A large amount of detail was lost because of the heavy DNR - end of story.

Boy I sure would love to see this comparison side by side.

I am begining to think that there is nothing being lost, that this is just a viewing preference. Kind of like listening to the Beatles on CD vs LP, in Mono or in Stereo.

JRS03 · 05-19-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKORIS

I'd had something else-- Bill Hunt, who I trust on most every detail-- is
viewing his movies on a 100" TV Screen!!! Perhaps he is seeing things a lot
of people do not--- (which he has said repeatedly)

Hmm really? Then why is Bill Hunt over at the Bits the only one that I have seen so far have a problem with this? Every other review site I have read loves these discs. I will keep looking for more review sites and see what they are saying.

So far I have found four review sites that are saying " You are seeing more detail on Patton than you have since it was at the theater, maybe even never in the theater! Two are saying that it is great but looks a little soft in places because of the DNR.

Croweyes1121 · 05-19-2009, 03:02 PM

In my view, the issue here isn't whether you like DNR or you don't like it. The issue is, that with the studios using *excessive* amounts of DNR on their discs, they're *forcing everyone* to watch it, and that's just not acceptable.

Now, this is an extreme example, but take widescreen. Some people cannot stand black bars. Just really cannot stand them. And for those people, there's something called a zoom button. We purists get the widescreen version, and those who couldn't care less about image cropping can fill their screens if they're so inclined. Everyone's happy. Likewise, if a blu-ray is produced with grain left intact and you don't want to see it, then you're more than welcome to use the digital noise reduction feature that is included on virtually any even moderately decent HD display. And those of us who don't want the original source manipulated in this way can leave the noise filtering off. Again, everyone's happy.

It's only when excessive DNR is burned into the finished disc that this debate begins to rage, because we don't *all* like it...but we're all forced to see the film that way regardless of our preference. And it's so pointless. To extend the widescreen analogy: there's an option for those who hate bars to make a widescreen image fill their television, but there is NOT a way to make a pan and scan disc into a widescreen version.

Eastkhan · 05-19-2009, 03:07 PM

Just because your BDs are the best presentation of the movie you've seen to date do not mean that they are accurate presentations, or an approximation to the theatrical presentation of these films.

AKORIS · 05-19-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRS03

Hmm really? Then why is Bill Hunt over at the Bits the only one that I have seen so far have a problem with this? Every other review site I have read loves these discs. I will keep looking for more review sites and see what they are saying.

So far I have found four review sites that are saying " You are seeing more detail on Patton than you have since it was at the theater, maybe even never in the theater! Two are saying that it is great but looks a little soft in places because of the DNR.

it's not just reviews JRS03-- there are plenty of posts on these forums
that HATE dnr releases and have been very vocal about it--
either way, we are in agreement on PATTON-- as I said, I think it looks
spectacular

JRS03 · 05-19-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croweyes1121

In my view, the issue here isn't whether you like DNR or you don't like it. The issue is, that with the studios using *excessive* amounts of DNR on their discs, they're *forcing everyone* to watch it, and that's just not acceptable.

Now, this is an extreme example, but take widescreen. Some people cannot stand black bars. Just really cannot stand them. And for those people, there's something called a zoom button. We purists get the widescreen version, and those who couldn't care less about image cropping can fill their screens if they're so inclined. Everyone's happy. Likewise, if a blu-ray is produced with grain left intact and you don't want to see it, then you're more than welcome to use the digital noise reduction feature that is included on virtually any even moderately decent HD display. And those of us who don't want the original source manipulated in this way can leave the noise filtering off. Again, everyone's happy.

It's only when excessive DNR is burned into the finished disc that this debate begins to rage, because we don't *all* like it...but we're all forced to see the film that way regardless of our preference. And it's so pointless. To extend the widescreen analogy: there's an option for those who hate bars to make a widescreen image fill their television, but there is NOT a way to make a pan and scan disc into a widescreen version.

So in the final analysis: There is no right or wrong answer. Its all about personal taste. I for one think Patton looks amazing, in fact I see more detail than I ever have before at any time on every medium. To me this looks like it was shot yesterday and not in 1969.

JRS03 · 05-19-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastkhan

Just because your BDs are the best presentation of the movie you've seen to date do not mean that they are accurate presentations, or an approximation to the theatrical presentation of these films.

Umm.....one question. Were you old enough to see Patton in the theater? And if so were you old enough to remember what the exact presentation is/was?

krazeyeyez · 05-19-2009, 03:20 PM

i also think this movie looks great! BUT i have seen far worse excessive use of DNR and it does ruin the image for me and i would prefer studios not get in the habit of this catering to people who can watch macroblocks and not notice but zoom to eliminate black bars and OAR, patton was still an enjoyable experience, even though the image is slightly softened.

05-19-2009, 01:50 PM	#1
JRS03 Banned Member since:May 2009 Blu-ray collection:51 Blu-ray reviews:5	Patton and The Longest Day What is your position on these discs? I personally think they are two of the best looking Blu's (for older titles) out there. Bill Hunt over at the bits cant seem to stand them. He had an article today on the 'education" of the videophile and why he does not like these dics. That entry no longer seems to be on his site (as it was a few hours ago). I also can no longer find the reviews for each of these dics in the review section on his site. I just wanted to know what the general consensus is here at Blu Ray.com with regards to these discs. Do we need to be educated? Or are my eyes deceiving me? On my 73" Mitsubishi they look great. What says you? Last edited by JRS03; 05-19-2009 at 01:55 PM.

05-19-2009, 01:58 PM	#4
JRS03 Banned Member since:May 2009 Blu-ray collection:51 Blu-ray reviews:5	Ok so what the deal with DNR? Making the image too soft? Losing the sharpness or detail? Ok....so whats everyone's beef with DNR? To me it looks like these films were shot digitally yesterday. Is it just a taste preference? Is it because there was grain in the film when they shot it a million years ago? Im just trying to understand all sides of this issue. Beta "why" would you prefer to have the grain left intact? Last edited by JRS03; 05-19-2009 at 02:02 PM.

05-19-2009, 03:02 PM	#15
Croweyes1121 Blu-ray Ninja Member since:May 2007 Location:Acworth, GA 4K collection:198 Blu-ray collection:548 DVD collection:113 Digital collection:373 Blu-ray reviews: 11 Trading Score:32	In my view, the issue here isn't whether you like DNR or you don't like it. The issue is, that with the studios using excessive amounts of DNR on their discs, they're forcing everyone to watch it, and that's just not acceptable. Now, this is an extreme example, but take widescreen. Some people cannot stand black bars. Just really cannot stand them. And for those people, there's something called a zoom button. We purists get the widescreen version, and those who couldn't care less about image cropping can fill their screens if they're so inclined. Everyone's happy. Likewise, if a blu-ray is produced with grain left intact and you don't want to see it, then you're more than welcome to use the digital noise reduction feature that is included on virtually any even moderately decent HD display. And those of us who don't want the original source manipulated in this way can leave the noise filtering off. Again, everyone's happy. It's only when excessive DNR is burned into the finished disc that this debate begins to rage, because we don't all like it...but we're all forced to see the film that way regardless of our preference. And it's so pointless. To extend the widescreen analogy: there's an option for those who hate bars to make a widescreen image fill their television, but there is NOT a way to make a pan and scan disc into a widescreen version. Last edited by Croweyes1121; 05-19-2009 at 03:05 PM.

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05-19-2009, 01:56 PM	#2
Beta Man Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Juuuuuuuust A Bit Outside.... Home Theater Gallery:4 Blu-ray collection:268 Blu-ray reviews: 18 Trading Score:25	many refer to the fact that DNR exists on these...... Patton looks great in my opinion as does the Longest Day... but I would prefer to have it with the grain left in tact.... but I enjoy watching them nonetheless, so that's my stance.

05-19-2009, 02:06 PM	#7
bhayden25 Junior Member Member since:Dec 2008 Location:Michigan 4K collection:28 Blu-ray collection:534 DVD collection:101 MA collection:4 Digital collection:3 Blu-ray reviews:5	I have seen Patton on VHS, DVD and now Blu-Ray an i can easily say that i have never seen Patton look this good. You would never guess that it's over 30yrs old

05-19-2009, 02:37 PM	#8
AKORIS Blu-ray Prince Member since:Jul 2008 Location:Beautiful Pacific Northwest 4K collection:662 Blu-ray collection:3655 Blu-ray reviews:19	this is and endless debate-- I can see what some of the DNR haters are talking about-- there is a softness to the clarity of detail if it's applied too heavy-- I noticed it on DARK CITY a few times-- but the funny thing is I have PATTON-- I got close to the screen and was really trying to study this "atrocious transfer" that people were talking about--I was looking for a waxy George C. Scott on my 52" Bravia ........and I just couldn't see it! The picture was outstanding to me-- the best I've ever seen this title. If DNR provides a picture like this then that's fine with me-- I view it the same way as a "remaster"--- you're still cleaning up a print and making it cleaner. Before I get hatebombs-- I know there's a difference-- I just don't "see" the controversy on PATTON.... I also think that PAN'S LABYRINTH looks fantastic-- another DNR applied title...

05-19-2009, 02:37 PM	#9
#Darren Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Feb 2008 Blu-ray collection:1471 Blu-ray reviews: 62	A large amount of detail was lost because of the heavy DNR - end of story.

05-19-2009, 02:40 PM	#10
P@t_Mtl Blu-ray Duke Member since:Sep 2008 Location:Montreal Home Theater Gallery:4 Blu-ray collection:452 DVD collection:513 Trading Score:3	I've only seen Patton (my brother is a huge fan of WW2 movies) and it does look pretty good. I haven't seen Longest Day as of yet but the reviews seen to show a very outstanding PQ.

05-19-2009, 02:44 PM	#11
AKORIS Blu-ray Prince Member since:Jul 2008 Location:Beautiful Pacific Northwest 4K collection:662 Blu-ray collection:3655 Blu-ray reviews:19	I'd had something else-- Bill Hunt, who I trust on most every detail-- is viewing his movies on a 100" TV Screen!!! Perhaps he is seeing things a lot of people do not--- (which he has said repeatedly)

05-19-2009, 02:44 PM	#12
BaronVH Power Member Member since:Oct 2007	If you view these on a large display, say over 60" then you might have a problem. I have a 50" display and do not have problems with the image at all. I have seen comparisons that show lost details, and, while I wish the detail was there, it does not bother me about the image. Patton, however, still has the audio problem that was on the DVD. In the 5.1 mix there is a slight buzzing sound that can be annoying in the softer sounding scenes. That does bother me a little bit. Both of these movies look better than I have ever seen them before.

05-19-2009, 03:07 PM	#16
Eastkhan Active Member Member since:Mar 2009 Location:Istanbul, Turkey and College Station, Texas	Just because your BDs are the best presentation of the movie you've seen to date do not mean that they are accurate presentations, or an approximation to the theatrical presentation of these films.

05-19-2009, 03:20 PM	#20
krazeyeyez Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Dec 2007 Location:the guy on the couch Home Theater Gallery:18 Blu-ray collection:287 Blu-ray reviews:4	i also think this movie looks great! BUT i have seen far worse excessive use of DNR and it does ruin the image for me and i would prefer studios not get in the habit of this catering to people who can watch macroblocks and not notice but zoom to eliminate black bars and OAR, patton was still an enjoyable experience, even though the image is slightly softened.

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