Bitstreaming takes away menu sounds and pip!

[Stu123]

shock ive just read this on using bitstream on the HD tracks

There is a drawback to this method. If you use bitstream you will not hear the disc menu sounds or the secondary track for Bonus View Picture-in-Picture features. The menu sounds are no big deal, but you may like Bonus View. Fortunately you are likely to watch the disc without Bonus View the first time and use the Bonus View during a second viewing, so there is a very easy workaround.

this sucks! i was pleased i was going to be able to have the HD codec lights on my reciever and now this has put me right off i might just select PCM and decode in the player now and the menu sounds are a big deal for me they're all part of experiencing the best out of the disc.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by stubiedoo

shock ive just read this on using bitstream on the HD tracks

There is a drawback to this method. If you use bitstream you will not hear the disc menu sounds or the secondary track for Bonus View Picture-in-Picture features. The menu sounds are no big deal, but you may like Bonus View. Fortunately you are likely to watch the disc without Bonus View the first time and use the Bonus View during a second viewing, so there is a very easy workaround.

this sucks! i was pleased i was going to be able to have the HD codec lights on my reciever and now this has put me right off i might just select PCM and decode in the player now and the menu sounds are a big deal for me they're all part of experiencing the best out of the disc.

I bitstream and i get menu sounds, just not secondary tracks. for me i want to watch and enjoy the movie in the best sound i can with my system and focus completely on the movie. later, i have no problem changing the audio options so i can get those secondary tracks but i save that stuff for maybe the second time i am going to watch a movie. but i do understand your unhappyness. you can still enjoy the vanity light on your receiver, just watch the movie once in it's intended form then later go back and enable the secondary audio and watch it again for a detailed feature filled experience.

[Stu123]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

I bitstream and i get menu sounds, just not secondary tracks. for me i want to watch and enjoy the movie in the best sound i can with my system and focus completely on the movie. later, i have no problem changing the audio options so i can get those secondary tracks but i save that stuff for maybe the second time i am going to watch a movie. but i do understand your unhappyness. you can still enjoy the vanity light on your receiver, just watch the movie once in it's intended form then later go back and enable the secondary audio and watch it again for a detailed feature filled experience.

what do i need to do to hear the pip track then? set it to pcm?

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by stubiedoo

what do i need to do to hear the pip track then? set it to pcm?

enable it in the blu-ray movie menu. that i am aware of only the ps3 player that exist that will decode lossless audio, as well as send out secondary audio tracks at the same time as an LPCM. with the ps3 slim, if you set it up to bitstream, and enabled secondary audio for pip, the ps3 slim will automatically switch to lpcm so it can still send out lossless audio with the secondary audio for your pip. thanks to it's cell processors only the ps3 (fat) & the ps3 (slim) can do this.

again, in your movie, select the secondary audio and then display with your ps3 controller to see that you are getting lossless & secondary audio sent, then, see what your receiver is saying it's getting.

best of luck, hope that helps. keep us posted so everyone can learn of the results.

[gyjytyas]

Ok i have researching about this for a week i called sony and everything. here it goes : ps3 phat can only give ture hd and dts master audio threw LPCM via HDMI.that means ps3 phat cant bitstream because ps3 (phat) has HDMI 1.2 and deep color. If u want Ture HD and dts master audio u need to connect ur ps3 threw HDMI to home theater receiver. optical cant give hd audio.if u have a optical connection u cant bitstream theres no difference just turn it off.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by gyjytyas

Ok i have researching about this for a week i called sony and everything. here it goes : ps3 phat can only give ture hd and dts master audio threw LPCM via HDMI.that means ps3 phat cant bitstream because ps3 (phat) has HDMI 1.2 and deep color. If u want Ture HD and dts master audio u need to connect ur ps3 threw HDMI to home theater receiver. optical cant give hd audio.if u have a optical connection u cant bitstream theres no difference just turn it off.

not too sure about your reply; we all knew this. the originator of this post is asking about secondary audio and lossless audio combined; notice the responses?

[Big Daddy]

The implications of bitstreaming was covered a long time ago in the middle of post #1 in A Guide to Home Theater Audio Codecs.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

The implications of bitstreaming was covered a long time ago in the middle of post #1 in A Guide to Home Theater Audio Codecs.

thanks bd but it's not really a question about bitstreaming as much as it is about how to get both lossless & secondary audio for pip with the ps3. that has been explained. i think the naming of the post might be throwing some off as to what is actually being asked. what do you think?

[Hep]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

thanks bd but it's not really a question about bitstreaming as much as it is about how to get both lossless & secondary audio for pip with the ps3. that has been explained. i think the naming of the post might be throwing some off as to what is actually being asked. what do you think?

Big Daddy's post actually answers the questions quite eloquently:

The downside to sending the advanced audio codecs in native bitstream is that you can only send the movie soundtrack itself. Any secondary content, like menu beeps or the audio that accompanies Picture-in-Picture interactive features is not part of the original bitstream and will not be transmitted. Audio commentaries and alternative-language audio may also be affected, depending on how the disc was authored. The only way to send the additional content is by allowing the disc player to perform the audio decoding itself, during which the player mixes the new material on top of the movie soundtrack for transmission in either PCM or analog format. In some cases, you may lose the lossless soundtrack. If you are watching a movie with the Bonus View features enabled, and you want to restore the high resolution audio, it may require you to stop the disc playback to go to the player’s setup menu, and that can be a big nuisance.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by Hep

Big Daddy's post actually answers the questions quite eloquently:

thanks hep, but, the PS3 has a remedy for that, it switches to LPCM, decodes onboard and also includes the secondary audio stream as well thanks to it's cell processors. it's the only player that can do that, not so much a true bitstream but the guy will get lossless and secondary audio with his ps3 which is what he was asking and that answer wasn't incorporated in the response of BD.

however, hep, that is a great answer about bitstreaming in general and most of it holds true for the ps3 too, most of it, but not all of it!

good catch & save!

[Trix]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

enable it in the blu-ray movie menu. that i am aware of only the ps3 player that exist that will decode lossless audio, as well as send out secondary audio tracks at the same time as an LPCM. with the ps3 slim, if you set it up to bitstream, and enabled secondary audio for pip, the ps3 slim will automatically switch to lpcm so it can still send out lossless audio with the secondary audio for your pip. thanks to it's cell processors only the ps3 (fat) & the ps3 (slim) can do this.

again, in your movie, select the secondary audio and then display with your ps3 controller to see that you are getting lossless & secondary audio sent, then, see what your receiver is saying it's getting.

best of luck, hope that helps. keep us posted so everyone can learn of the results.

In regards to the emphasized section: Any player that can internally decode Doldy TrueHD and DTS HD-Master Audio can also internally decode secondary audio and then send the entire stream (HD Audio and Secondary audio) to a receiver as LPCM. It doesn't need to be the PS3, slim or fat.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by Trix

In regards to the emphasized section: Any player that can internally decode Doldy TrueHD and DTS HD-Master Audio can also internally decode secondary audio and then send the entire stream (HD Audio and Secondary audio) to a receiver as LPCM. It doesn't need to be the PS3, slim or fat.

I respectfully disagree. even the Oppo BDP-83, which i own, if secondary audio is enabled, it will mix the secondary audio with the primary HD audio, reducing it down in resolution to essentially "core" quality in LPCM. Check page 56 in the Oppo manual. Oppo is one of the newest, and one of, if not the best player(s) on the market and it cannot do this. I am not beyond saying i'm wrong. can you please list players, other than the
PS3 that can actually send lossless audio with secondary lossy audio, mixed in one stream? I could not find any; i'm not saying there might not be something incredibly new that i'm not aware of. i'm only speaking of what i currently am aware of. please list the brand and model of one that can do this. i think we would all like to know, we can all learn from this.

[solarrdadd]

taken from a different thread:

Originally Posted by JDTalbert

I am just using the HDMI cable for both Video and Audio. I do not have a surround sound system yet. So I am not bit-streaming the audio out. That is a good question, something that would be good to know for eventually when I talk my wife into letting me get a surround sound system :-)

Originally Posted by krisjan

That's not a flaw in the BD30 design - it's how its supposed to work. In order to get the secondary audio (e.g. the commentary audio track when viewing a BR profile 1.1 release) you need to go into the set-up menu of the BD30 and set secondary audio to "ON". That will then downmix the film's audio trach along with the comemntary track so you can hear both when viewing the Bonus View content. It would be nice is Panasonic allowed you to toggle that option from the remote rather than having to go into the set-up menu every time but it's not a design flaw.

Originally Posted by jhawkjd

But then it doesn't bitstream, it decodes in the player, right? And since the BD30 doesn't decode DTS-HDMA, you lose that particular aspect to gain the commentary track.

Originally Posted by krisjan

Right. With secondary audio set to "ON", you will lose the hi-rez audio capability and in its place get the legacy DD or DTS film sound track mixed with the audio commentary. No big deal in my opinion because with the commentary blabbing away, why would you care if the movie audio is hi-rez?

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

taken from a different thread:

But notice jhawkjd's quote (emphasis added):

But then it doesn't bitstream, it decodes in the player, right? And since the BD30 doesn't decode DTS-HDMA, you lose that particular aspect to gain the commentary track.

The BD30 must downmix to core DTS because it does not have a DTS-HD MA decoder. That doesn't necessarily apply to other players.

PS3's ("fat" and "slim") with current firmware do have TrueHD & DTS-HD MA decoders, but I definitely know they're not the only BD players that have them.

Any player that can decode TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to LPCM should be capable of adding lossy menu/PIP sounds without affecting the HD audio, as long as it can decode the lossy format (DD/DTS), if any, at the same time. I can't say for certain if any other player does, but I doubt the PS3's the only one that can--and I have a "fat" PS3 (with a Sony HT-SS2300, one of the few HTIBs that handles LPCM over HDMI).

(Edit: The core statement is still correct: You cannot have both bitstreaming and menu/PIP sounds. If you want to hear HD audio & menu/PIP together, they must decoded & mixed in the player.)

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

But notice jhawkjd's quote (emphasis added):
The BD30 must downmix to core DTS because it does not have a DTS-HD MA decoder. That doesn't necessarily apply to other players.

PS3's ("fat" and "slim") with current firmware do have TrueHD & DTS-HD MA decoders, but I definitely know they're not the only BD players that have them.

Any player that can decode TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to LPCM should be capable of adding lossy menu/PIP sounds without affecting the HD audio, as long as it can decode the lossy format (DD/DTS), if any, at the same time. I can't say for certain if any other player does, but I doubt the PS3's the only one that can--and I have a "fat" PS3 (with a Sony HT-SS2300, one of the few HTIBs that handles LPCM over HDMI).

(Edit: The core statement is still correct: You cannot have both bitstreaming and menu/PIP sounds. If you want to hear HD audio & menu/PIP together, they must decoded & mixed in the player.)

this is why i asked for brands & model #'s of players other than the ps3 that can. i know any player that can decode lossless onboard and has hdmi will send it out as an LPCM because that is what it must be sent out as since it has been decoded. what i'm saying is, other than the ps3, can any player combine HD, lossless audio that has been decoded onboard that player, with the secondary audio of pip without causing that lossless audio to be downmixed into it's lossy core counterpart. i'm not talking about players ability to decode lossless codecs onboard. if you or anyone knows of a player that can do this then please list it by brand and model number. like i said, even the mighty Oppo blu can't do that, it too will down mix to it's lossy counterpart and send both the 5.1 and the secondary audio out as a LPCM (lossy) including the secondary audio.

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

I respectfully disagree. even the Oppo BDP-83, which i own, if secondary audio is enabled, it will mix the secondary audio with the primary HD audio, reducing it down in resolution to essentially "core" quality in LPCM. Check page 56 in the Oppo manual. Oppo is one of the newest, and one of, if not the best player(s) on the market and it cannot do this. I am not beyond saying i'm wrong.

It's actually page 55 as numbered, page 61 of the PDF in the Oppo's online manual (italics supplied): "On – The Secondary Audio Program and menu clicking sound are mixed into the primary audio. Usually this will cause the primary audio volume to be slightly reduced. High resolution primary audio will be converted to a normal resolution in order to mix with the secondary audio."

So apparently even the mighty Oppo can't walk (decode HD audio at full resolution) and chew gum (decode DD/DTS menu/PIP sounds) at the same time, though it can mix them. Hmmm...

can you please list players, other than the
PS3 that can actually send lossless audio with secondary lossy audio, mixed in one stream? I could not find any; i'm not saying there might not be something incredibly new that i'm not aware of. i'm only speaking of what i currently am aware of. please list the brand and model of one that can do this. i think we would all like to know, we can all learn from this.

Since my only BD players are a PS3 and my PC (and most BD software players intentionally cripple their audio output), I can't answer that one. Since the Oppo can't, maybe a Denon or other high-end player can? Anybody?

[RBBrittain]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

this is why i asked for brands & model #'s of players other than the ps3 that can. i know any player that can decode lossless onboard and has hdmi will send it out as an LPCM because that is what it must be sent out as since it has been decoded. what i'm saying is, other than the ps3, can any player combine HD, lossless audio that has been decoded onboard that player, with the secondary audio of pip without causing that lossless audio to be downmixed into it's lossy core counterpart. i'm not talking about players ability to decode lossless codecs onboard. if you or anyone knows of a player that can do this then please list it by brand and model number. like i said, even the mighty Oppo blu can't do that, it too will down mix to it's lossy counterpart and send both the 5.1 and the secondary audio out as a LPCM (lossy) including the secondary audio.

Mixing LPCM isn't the problem, nor does mixing a lossy stream into a lossless stream at LPCM level necessarily make it lossy. I think the limiting factor may be whether or not the player can decode *both* HD audio (main sound) *and* DD/DTS (menu/PIP) at the same time; I hinted at that in the post you were responding to.

The PS3 can do that because IIRC (and definitely for TrueHD & DTS-HD MA, both added by post-launch updates) its decoders are in software; it's just a matter of multitasking, if not multi-threading. If a stand-alone BD player has separate TrueHD/DTS-HD MA and DD/DTS decoder chips, it might be able to do it as well. But if they're on the same chip, that might be a problem...

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by RBBrittain

Mixing LPCM isn't the problem, nor does mixing a lossy stream into a lossless stream at LPCM level necessarily make it lossy. I think the limiting factor may be whether or not the player can decode *both* HD audio (main sound) *and* DD/DTS (menu/PIP) at the same time; I hinted at that in the post you were responding to.

The PS3 can do that because IIRC (and definitely for TrueHD & DTS-HD MA, both added by post-launch updates) its decoders are in software; it's just a matter of multitasking, if not multi-threading. If a stand-alone BD player has separate TrueHD/DTS-HD MA and DD/DTS decoder chips, it might be able to do it as well. But if they're on the same chip, that might be a problem...

agreed, that is what the person who started this thread was asking, that's what i've been saying all along, "at the same time" so far, as you have stated only the PS3 can do it. i don't think players want to have to raise the price of their machines just for that, i wouldn't buy a machine at the extra cost just to have full HD & secondary aludio it's not worth the cost, for me; i'm sure others would pay for it.

i think we have beat this one to death, lets go and have a cold one and watch some football, hey, it's Monday Night!

[JackKnightStarman]

I remember watching Maximum Movie Mode on Watchmen director's cut, and my onkyo 606 saying multichannel. I will double check to verify. Yes I had to have it on secondary on the player.

[Trix]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

agreed, that is what the person who started this thread was asking, that's what i've been saying all along, "at the same time" so far, as you have stated only the PS3 can do it. i don't think players want to have to raise the price of their machines just for that, i wouldn't buy a machine at the extra cost just to have full HD & secondary aludio it's not worth the cost, for me; i'm sure others would pay for it.

i think we have beat this one to death, lets go and have a cold one and watch some football, hey, it's Monday Night!

Well I'll be! Here I was assuming that the PCM stream was full-range HD Audio. There's the last time I assume anything anymore! Even doing DAC in the player won't let me keep full-range (Panasonic BD-55). You learn something new everyday! Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

And on that note, I definitly picked the BD-55 over the BD-35 for no particular reason then! I should've read HT Mag a lot closer...