John Connor & the effects of time travel(long)

[MosHighDef]

So with the upcoming Terminator movie nearly upon us, I thought I would share some of my thoughts with you guys about the effects of time travel on the Terminator story line. Feel free to add your opinions.

First, let us review some of the key facts, from the first movie.

I will refer to the John Connor of the first movie as the "original" John Connor — that is, the one who lived a life without interference by time travelers; the one who lived a normal, unassuming life up until Judgement Day; the one who became a leader in the future, and sent Kyle Reese back in time to protect his past.

In the first movie, Kyle Reese is sent back in time by John Connor to protect Sarah Connor from the threat of the Terminator. At one point, Dr. Silberman asked Reese why the Terminator went to the trouble of time traveling, when he could have just killed John Connor in the future. To this, Reese explained that the resistance had already destroyed Skynet's defense grid, and that essentially, mankind had already defeated Skynet. In other words, the death of John Connor at that time would not have changed anything. Skynet's last hope was to alter the past, so that this John Connor would never have existed in the first place to bring hope to the doomed and dwindling population.

Kyle Reese went on to explain that after the time jump, all traces of time traveling technology were destroyed, so that no other humans or terminators could be sent back to the past. The longstanding implications of this claim are such that any subsequent encounter by a cyborg (as was chronicled in subsequent movies, etc.) would not be caused by time travelers who came from the original future. Effectively, the door to the past was sealed in the original future, by "original" John Connor.

The John Connor(s) of which we know from the subsequent movies, tv show, novels, novelizations, and comics, is NOT the original John Connor.

The original John Connor was a completely different human, born of Sarah Connor by another unknown man who existed in Sarah Connor's time, in the original pre-time-travel era.

The other John Connor(s) is genetically different, born of Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese, and therefore, is not the same leader-type, who takes initiative and authority in the future to stop the wave of destruction being caused by Skynet. The only thing they have in common is that "other" John Connor grows up with the belief that he is, or will become, the "original" John Connor.

The big problem here is that Sarah Connor cannot possibly prepare John Connor adequately for the task at hand, because this other John Connor's lot in life is completely different. He has a different future, a different destiny, and a completely different set of events and circumstances to live through.

Whereas "original" John Connor was a brave man who reacted to his surroundings, "other" John Connor is a different man with a different upbringing, a man with different morals instilled upon him, a man who had to devise a strategy ahead of time.

I think that when these things I've described are sorted out in one's mind, it becomes easier to understand and appreciate the true challenge with which our hero is faced. The John Connor we know and root for is a man who thinks he knows what his destiny holds, but is not completely sure if he is capable of living up to the expectations placed upon him by his mother and by himself. And the worst part about it is that he probably does not understand or realize that the future he is anticipating will be very different from the one he will encounter.


Now, the reason I said "John Connor(s)" earlier, is because I feel that there are several different explanations for the events of the Terminator Franchise, thusfar.

For instance, most physicists today would argue that if someone did go back in time, and change the past, they would not really be changing the past. They would simply be acting out a new chain of events in a different reality. By this process, we could say that there have been several different John Connors.

The first John Connor sent Kyle Reese back in time to protect Sarah Connor. Sarah and Kyle produced second John Connor, who grew up to become the leader of the resistance, and sent the T-800 back in time to protect a third John Connor from the threat of the T-1000. Eventually, third John Connor, the 12 year old in Terminator 2, became a resistance leader, and married Kate Brewster. Third John Connor was killed by a T-850 whose appearance resembled that of the T-800 from Terminator and Terminator 2, after which Kate Brewster captured, reprogrammed, and sent the T-850 back in time to protect the high-ranking members of the resistance from the T-X. Both the T-x and the T-850 came into contact with fourth John Connor, who went on to survive Judgement Day by hiding deep underground in the government's bunker.

This explanation is most sound, given what we know today about theoretical time travel, but the movies suggest a different explanation.

Because of the fact that in Terminator 2, John and Sarah Connor were aware of the T-800 attack back in 1983, and that in Terminator 3, John Connor was aware of the T-1000 attack back in 1991, this suggests that in the Terminator universe, there is only one time line that can be manipulated, but ultimately, cannot be escaped. Therefore, all time traveling within this timeline effects the future, and because of the time traveling, there is a constant dialogue of causes and effects between the past and the future, that are continually acting upon and changing one another, within this single time line.

This holds true for the movies, and allows us to move forward with our analysis. However, in order to move forward here, we have to completely disregard everything mentioned in The Sarah Connor Chronicles. If the theory that all time travel is contained within one timeline is true, the events unfolding in the Sarah Connor Chronicles cannot take place. But if the theory that each time travel branches off to a new time line, then Terminator 2 and Terminator 3 are just loaded with blatant inconsistencies.

We can try to balance this out by accepting that there will be irreconcilable inconsistencies in the overall plot, and acknowledging that at the time of the franchise's inception (and continuing through the first sequal), the authors did not possess the knowledge necessary to convey the story entirely accurately. Therefore, it was a flawed story line given to the makers of Terminator 3, and The Sarah Connor Chronicles, and there was nothing that could be done about it, other than to just move ahead with what they considered to be the next logical step in the series.

The makers of the Sarah Connor Chronicles have mentioned specifically in interviews that they have deviated from Terminator 3. So in the end, we have competing ideas for the very make-up of the franchise.

So the big question is, which way will Terminator 4 lean? Will the story pick up one particular John Connor in one of the various branching time lines? And if so, which one? Or will it lean towards the idea that there is one time line, where the past and future are continually competing and fighting one another for resolution? And if this is true, at what point in the relationship between past and future does this John Connor exist?

Will this be the John Connor who sent Kyle Reese back to protect Sarah? Will this be the John Connor who sent the T-800 back to protect himself? Will this be the John Connor who eventually dies at the hands of a T-850 that looks just like the old T-800?

Will this be the John Connor who is fathered by Kyle Reese, who survives the attacks of the T-1000, and who also escapes Judgement Day by hiding in the bunker? Will this be another John Connor that spawns from the events of The Sarah Connor Chronicles? Will this be a John Connor that comes about from other events that have yet to be unvailed?

By either theory of time travel, there are a multitude of different John Connors, each effected by different events and different memories and upbringings.

So needless to say, I'm hoping that the new Terminator movie will add some extra clues to this puzzle, that might help everything make more sense altogether.

[mcx79]

all makes sense, but how did Kyle Reese know the time travel equipment was destroyed? He obviously was not there to see that through so that could have been a line to an infantryman to help convince him to leave knowing he could not return and then of course eventually father the very person whom sent him there. Unless I do not remember this explanation fully in T1. Now, I have not seen any of the Sarah Conor Chronicles so I am not an expert on all these matters, but I believe these event were destined to happen. This is (to me) the message in T3, remember Myles Dyson's wife saying something like "aren't we changing things now?" Once Uncle Sam caught wind of the technology there was no hope for us....lol We were just seeing what had already been lived.

Time travel is always hard to pull off especially when you get sequels involved. I think they did an admirable job considering.

[GGX]

John Connor's father has always been Kyle Reese. Its a time paradox.

[Adegan]

Originally Posted by GGX

John Connor's father has always been Kyle Reese. Its a time paradox.

Exactly, original John Connor as you put it, always knew that Kyle Reese was his father and everything that has happened in the movies is the life that he was always determined to lead.

[neos_peace]

OK I love these types of debates. First off like was said eariler. Kyle Reese was and always will be John Conner's Father. If you remember at the end of T1. Sahra says in here tape mess to her future son. That he has to send him back or else he will never be to begin with. (something to that extent) Now move unto T3. When John and Kate and the Terminaor are in the RV. John makes the comment, "Now we blew up Skynet. We stoppped Judgement day, you shouldn't even exists." Then the Terminator comes back with. you just prolonged it, judgement day is inevitable." Now wiht all this inmind. I believe the John Connner we know as the one growing up is the John Conner we know as the leader of the resisitance. I beleive that they events that the growing up John incountered is the one and the same. It's just that the judgment day didn't happen in the same date. As far as the Sarah Conner Chronicales is concerned. I don't believe they were made to help us understand the timeline of John Conner. I beleive they were made to help us understand where John came from and why he does what he does.

We keep forgetting something. WE have no idea what the future leader John was raised like. We can onlyassume and speculate on his upbringing. As far as we all know is the events that we followed young John being brought up through is the same events that the future John grew up in.

We can't asssume what we don't know. We can't assume one set of events based off another set of events. now if we had some insight as to those events it would be different.

Can we change the future no. Why? because the events that we try to alter could very well be the same things that made that future happen in the first place. Understand.

[neos_peace]

Originally Posted by Adegan

Exactly, original John Connor as you put it, always knew that Kyle Reese was his father and everything that has happened in the movies is the life that he was always determined to lead.

EXACLTLY basically what I just said.