Black level detail of a kuro vs Panasonic V10, and a test for owners

[stobbart]

Ok from what it seems the Kuro is still the king (for videophiles) of the HDTV world. Because from the sound of it the average consumer who does not have a trained eye would not really be able to tell a difference. I do have a trained eye and want the best but then I got to thinking, the black level detail is not really discussed about this tv. Sure everyone knows it has the inky blacks that no other display can touch. But there is a difference between having just a completly black black with not detail and having damn good black that most people would not be able to tell a difference on and have excellent black level detail.

Im talking about the detail in the deepest dark black areas of the kuro. I have done work with 16mm b/w film and I can say that never will you get an area so black that you cannot see detail in it unless you have unexposed film. Even if you were on a lake at night the human eye would still be able to detect ripples of waves and the everychanging contours of the surface. I read a recent review of the V10, cant remember where as I have read so many, that said the V10 handles black level detail better then the kuro since the kuro is just interested in producing the deepest black possible it does not have the ability to create black level detail where as the V10 does. It was refering to the interrogation in a cave in quantum of solace if anyone has read that one.

So to owners, is this true? Is detail washed out in the black of a kuro? IF you want to know pop in Bram Stokers Dracula. Its is inteneded to be a really dark (lighting) film and would be a great test for both the kuro and V10 to see which one handles the detail in the blackest areas the best. (I pick this because I saw this in theatres after seeing it on a home theatre and the theatre had significantly improved black level detail and this is how movies are supposed to be. With inky blacks, yet with detail still there.

[dobyblue]

I have also read that the V10 produces better black detail.

[saprano]

I read in the home theater mag that its been said that kuros lose shawdow details because the black level is to dark. they were reviewing the 141 monitor. but they said they dont really believe that. you can adjust setting where you dont lose anthing. here's the exact quote...

Some people (particularly competitors) have argued that Pioneer's near-black levels are too dark and obscure shadow detail. I don't agree. If you raise the properly calibrated black level on a Pioneer, it will sometimes reveal a few details that you couldn't see otherwise, but you can also argue that you aren't supposed to see them. When it was properly adjusted, this set never lost important, dark-scene visual information.

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panel...or/index1.html

[edubb5]

Originally Posted by saprano

I read in the home theater mag that its been said that kuros lose shawdow details because the black level is to dark. they were reviewing the 141 monitor. but they said they dont really believe that. you can adjust setting where you dont lose anthing. here's the exact quote...



http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panel...or/index1.html

GO to CNET.com and look it up! I work @ Best buy and I see the Kuro and Panny's! side by side and the pioneer kill it...

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by saprano

you can adjust setting where you dont lose anthing

But what you do lose is those uncanny ANSI readings. (ie - by setting it up "properly" you lose those inky disappearing blacks that most people praise)

The ANSI is 14,000:1 on the PDP-6020FD, if you raise the black levels slightly you could be dropping anywhere from 4,000~10,000 ANSI in a heartbeat.

[crackinhedz]

GO to CNET.com and look it up! I work @ Best buy and I see the Kuro and Panny's! side by side and the pioneer kill it...

...for one, never trust Cnet. Two, working at bestbuy and looking at their TV's is the worst comparison you can ever make!

But I agree, Id rather have a Kuro.

[lojack1976]

Well, from everything that I've read and from the comparisons I've made side by side in a Magnolia Room it is correct that Panasonic's show a little more detail in dark scenes, but the difference is not nearly as extreme as some make it out to be. The blacks that a Kuro can produce are still far enough ahead that I wouldn't take the Panny over it. I've seen a lot of Samsung's with far weaker blacks show less detail than Pioneer. Panasonic has just excelled in shadow detail, but Pioneer has excelled in black level. With that said take the Pioneer over the V10 if price is no issue and never look back. Another thing I observed was a Hitachi beside an 850u and it had much deeper blacks than the Panny, but it was able to show just as much detail.

[wafi]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

...for one, never trust Cnet. Two, working at bestbuy and looking at their TV's is the worst comparison you can ever make!

But I agree, Id rather have a Kuro.

That's harsh!

[wafi]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Well, from everything that I've read and from the comparisons I've made side by side in a Magnolia Room it is correct that Panasonic's show a little more detail in dark scenes, but the difference is not nearly as extreme as some make it out to be. The blacks that a Kuro can produce are still far enough ahead that I wouldn't take the Panny over it. I've seen a lot of Samsung's with far weaker blacks show less detail than Pioneer. Panasonic has just excelled in shadow detail, but Pioneer has excelled in black level. With that said take the Pioneer over the V10 if price is no issue and never look back. Another thing I observed was a Hitachi beside an 850u and it had much deeper blacks than the Panny, but it was able to show just as much detail.

Wait the Hita was beside the V10 or the 850U?

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by wafi

Wait the Hita was beside the V10 or the 850U?

This was beside an 850u and a Kuro Elite was above the 850u. A Samsung 8000 series LED on the other side the Hitachi. The Hitachi P50X902 was extremely close to the Kuro Elite. I mean it was real close. I've seen the G10 and V10 and even though they weren't near those sets I'm pretty sure the V10 is no blacker than the Hitachi, and to be honest I think the Hitachi had a slight edge in black level. Unfortunately no professional reviews did any measurements on the Hitachi to verify this, but I can also say that the Hitachi was much more accurate than the 850u which also means its even more accurate than the G10 or V10 since both of those are less accurate than the 850u.

[wafi]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

This was beside an 850u and a Kuro Elite was above the 850u. A Samsung 8000 series LED on the other side the Hitachi. The Hitachi P50X902 was extremely close to the Kuro Elite. I mean it was real close. I've seen the G10 and V10 and even though they weren't near those sets I'm pretty sure the V10 is no blacker than the Hitachi, and to be honest I think the Hitachi had a slight edge in black level. Unfortunately no professional reviews did any measurements on the Hitachi to verify this, but I can also say that the Hitachi was much more accurate than the 850u which also means its even more accurate than the G10 or V10 since both of those are less accurate than the 850u.

I was just reading S&V mag...and wow! Here's the conclusion...I for one am impressed...

While its $3,695 list price is a little high, Hitachi’s P50X902 represents a new level of performance and engineering prowess for the company. It can’t beat Pioneer’s plasmas (especially the ’08 models) at reproducing deep-black shadows, but most people would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. Throw in the Hitachi’s superior, user-friendly menu system and remote control, plus the set’s cool aesthetics and swivel base, and you’ve got a TV worth taking a good look at.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by wafi

I was just reading S&V mag...and wow! Here's the conclusion...I for one am impressed...

I read that before I actually saw it so I was a little skeptical, but when I actually saw it near a Kuro Elite and compared I was completely floored. Its a shame that Hitachi has given up on plasma right after making such a big leap over the previous year. I guess if they didn't charge such a ridiculous price for it when it was released this could have been a successful year for Hitachi.

[wafi]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

I read that before I actually saw it so I was a little skeptical, but when I actually saw it near a Kuro Elite and compared I was completely floored. Its a shame that Hitachi has given up on plasma right after making such a big leap over the previous year. I guess if they didn't charge such a ridiculous price for it when it was released this could have been a successful year for Hitachi.

I'm gonna keep an eye on it...its around $1500 right now but if it goes under $1000 I might just get one to replace one of my lcds.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by wafi

I'm gonna keep an eye on it...its around $1500 right now but if it goes under $1000 I might just get one to replace one of my lcds.

Yeah, I've noticed the price too. If I had the cash freed up I'd jump all over it. I'm hoping some will still be around later when I can get some cash up. The step down model is the P50V702 and its pretty much the same set minus the fancy crystal bezel and a few features. It has the same black stripe filter though which what's really important. I originally purchased one of those from TigerDirect, but they jerked me around with it being on back order at the time and I got impatient after more than a week of nothing. Got my money back and bought some speakers. They put the set back up from time to time so I'm guessing that they get a few in here and there. It goes for $1200 shipped which is a steal. They also offer the P50S602 from time to time which is the entry set, but it has a lesser black filter, fewer menu adjustments, and no motorized swivel. They sell it for the same price though.

[nugent]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Yeah, I've noticed the price too. If I had the cash freed up I'd jump all over it. I'm hoping some will still be around later when I can get some cash up. The step down model is the P50V702 and its pretty much the same set minus the fancy crystal bezel and a few features. It has the same black stripe filter though which what's really important. I originally purchased one of those from TigerDirect, but they jerked me around with it being on back order at the time and I got impatient after more than a week of nothing. Got my money back and bought some speakers. They put the set back up from time to time so I'm guessing that they get a few in here and there. It goes for $1200 shipped which is a steal. They also offer the P50S602 from time to time which is the entry set, but it has a lesser black filter, fewer menu adjustments, and no motorized swivel. They sell it for the same price though.

You can use "Bing.com" cash back and get 10.2% back from TD right now.
Deliverd price on the P50V702 is $1,085,80. Seems like a bang up bargain for a 50" plasma with some good press.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by nugent

You can use "Bing.com" cash back and get 10.2% back from TD right now.
Deliverd price on the P50V702 is $1,085,80. Seems like a bang up bargain for a 50" plasma with some good press.

Thanks for the heads up. I don't have it right now, but I'll try to remember to keep Bing.com in mind for future references.

[Geickel]

Here's the deal, guys. The 9th generation kuros (from 2008) can produce deeper black levels than any Panasonic to date (excluding new models from CES 2010, which have not been released, and therefore have not been reviewed). As far as shadow detail goes, I have read a couple of reviews from fairly well-known (at least among the videophile community) professional calibrators, one who's website is hdguru.com and the other, who goes by the tag D-Nice, and is a regular poster at AVSforum.com. The HD GURU will tell you that the 12G Pannys produce better shadow detail after calibration. D-Nice will tell you that the 9G Kuros (specifically the Elite models PRO-111FD, PRO-151FD, PRO-101FD monitor, and the PRO-141FD monitor; and the non-Elite KRP-500m and KRP-600m monitors) are the best televisions ever made (where PQ is concerned). I have looked at both, and agree with D-Nice. Especially in dark scenes, to my eyes the darker the panel can go (and still retain shadow detail) the better. Lighter blacks (or, more accurately, lighter grays) produce what I can best describe as a haze over the screen in dark scenes. Granted, I have not had the pleasure of viewing a Panasonic V10, but I have critically viewed the G10, as well as the X1 (best budget tv currently on the market), and can say that, although good, they were not close in comparison to the PRO-111FD in the same room.

[dobyblue]

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[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

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The normal new member doesn't bother to read the date of posts before responding. There should be a prompt when replying to things older then say 3 months....just a thought :-) (if it's possible)

Bill

[genkifd]

how about in a brightly lit room - how does the Pana V series compare with the Kuro elites???