35hz capable tower speakers vs. 40hz capable subwoofer

[Beaner666]

I know the common feeling on this board is that running a full 5.1 system with a powered subwoofer is better than running a 5.0 system with full range tower speaker’s but here’s my predicament:

My current system (listed below in my signature) isn’t the best and my subwoofer (Polk PSW10) is only rated down to 40 Hz and I have had problems with it bottoming out. I have some old JBL tower speakers (TLX171) that I dug out of storage and they are rated down to 35 Hz.

I realize the JBL towers aren’t technically full range, but since they can handle deeper bass than the Polk sub would I be better off integrating the tower speakers into my system and running them at full range?

[Johk]

Originally Posted by Beaner666

I know the common feeling on this board is that running a full 5.1 system with a powered subwoofer is better than running a 5.0 system with full range tower speaker’s but here’s my predicament:

My current system (listed below in my signature) isn’t the best and my subwoofer (Polk PSW10) is only rated down to 40 Hz and I have had problems with it bottoming out. I have some old JBL tower speakers (TLX171) that I dug out of storage and they are rated down to 35 Hz.

I realize the JBL towers aren’t technically full range, but since they can handle deeper bass than the Polk sub would I be better off integrating the tower speakers into my system and running them at full range?

The TLX171 are 35Hz-25kHz (-6dB), the PSW10 is 35Hz-200Hz with 40Hz at -3 dB.

At 35 Hz, both are probably at around -6 dB (which means that at 35 Hz the volume is 4 times lower than the normal level).

I would say you're better off sticking with the sub (until you can upgrade it ) since the sub will still handle the lower frequencies better and with the speakers only.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by Johk

The TLX171 are 35Hz-25kHz (-6dB), the PSW10 is 35Hz-200Hz with 40Hz at -3 dB.

At 35 Hz, both are probably at around -6 dB (which means that at 35 Hz the volume is 4 times lower than the normal level).

I would say you're better off sticking with the sub (until you can upgrade it ) since the sub will still handle the lower frequencies better and with the speakers only, you won't get the content from the LFE ".1" track even if you run them full range. So even if you had real full range speakers, you would need a subwoofer to get what is encoded in the .1 track unless the speakers have integrated subs like the Def Tech Mythos ST SuperTower.

+1...I was going to say the same thing about the LFE, but Johk beat me to it. Better off getting a better sub and just using the current PSW10 for now. I used to own one, and it does have its limits...have you tried putting polyfill in the sub to help makes it "sound bigger?" This may also help with some of the port noise you are hearing. It is an easy and cheap fix to do. A sub-riser couldn't hurt either in the meantime.

Here are some links that will help explain how polyfill and a sub-riser can possibly improve your bass response:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers...upgrading.html

https://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers...er-risers.html

[progers13]

Originally Posted by Johk

The TLX171 are 35Hz-25kHz (-6dB), the PSW10 is 35Hz-200Hz with 40Hz at -3 dB.

At 35 Hz, both are probably at around -6 dB (which means that at 35 Hz the volume is 4 times lower than the normal level).

I would say you're better off sticking with the sub (until you can upgrade it ) since the sub will still handle the lower frequencies better and with the speakers only, you won't get the content from the LFE ".1" track even if you run them full range. So even if you had real full range speakers, you would need a subwoofer to get what is encoded in the .1 track unless the speakers have integrated subs like the Def Tech Mythos ST SuperTower.

Originally Posted by Fors*

+1...I was going to say the same thing about the LFE, but Johk beat me to it. Better off getting a better sub and just using the current PSW10 for now. I used to own one, and it does have its limits...have you tried putting polyfill in the sub to help makes it "sound bigger?" This may also help with some of the port noise you are hearing. It is an easy and cheap fix to do. A sub-riser couldn't hurt either in the meantime.

Here are some links that will help explain how polyfill and a sub-riser can possibly improve your bass response:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers...upgrading.html

https://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers...er-risers.html

Not to mention proper placement for optimal bass response is very difficult with speakers - much easier with a sub

[Beaner666]

Thanks for the tips everyone!

One last question: I thought if you ran the fronts at full range and turned the subwoofer off on the receiver’s settings the LFE would be re-directed to the mains.

I know I need to upgrade my sub, but unfortunately I'm unemployed at the moment so I was hoping that re-integrating my old JBL's into my system would be a temporary (and free!) fix. I guess not based upon your recommendations.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by Beaner666

Thanks for the tips everyone!

One last question: I thought if you ran the fronts at full range and turned the subwoofer off on the receiver’s settings the LFE would be re-directed to the mains.

I know I need to upgrade my sub, but unfortunately I'm unemployed at the moment so I was hoping that re-integrating my old JBL's into my system would be a temporary (and free!) fix. I guess not based upon your recommendations.

The LFE is a dedicated signal sent only to the subwoofer. Don't confuse it with the lower frequencies sent to the speakers. Basically, setting the speakers to Large just bypasses the crossover you would might set in the AVR when set to Small. This allows to send the entire frequency range to the speakers, and not cutting them off at a certain point. You'll still get low frequency response, just not what is meant for the LFE. The LFE are frequencies at 120Hz and lower that are designed and sent to the sub only.

Good luck with the job hunt, I wish you well!

[jaeelarr]

Originally Posted by Fors*

The LFE is a dedicated signal sent only to the subwoofer. Don't confuse it with the lower frequencies sent to the speakers. Basically, setting the speakers to Large just bypasses the crossover you would might set in the AVR when set to Small. This allows to send the entire frequency range to the speakers, and not cutting them off at a certain point. You'll still get low frequency response, just not what is meant for the LFE. The LFE are frequencies at 120Hz and lower that are designed and sent to the sub only.

Good luck with the job hunt, I wish you well!

Are you saying that full range towers cant play LFE frequencies? That doesn't seem right to me.

[callas01]

LFE is built into the audio track from the mixing booth of a movie studio and is solely intended for the .1 channel(subwoofer)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_effect

The widely-used 5.1-channel audio system consists of five full range main (Left, Center, Right, Left rear Surround, and Right rear Surround) plus a Low-Frequency Effects (LFE) channel.

[Texitura]

I thought that if your bass management is set to "no subwoofer", LFE would be sent to the main speakers, no?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Texitura

I thought that if your bass management is set to "no subwoofer", LFE would be sent to the main speakers, no?

Yes, you are correct.

If the front speakers are set to LARGE and the subwoofer to YES, the front speakers only receive the low frequencies dedicated to the front channels. They will not receive the LFE channel.

If the front speakers are set to LARGE and the subwoofer to NO, then the front speakers will receive the LFE signal plus the redirected bass from all speakers that are set to SMALL.

It may be beneficial for everyone to read https://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers...anagement.html. There are detailed explanation with helpful diagrams in post #1.

[xneox]

Class dismissed.

[callas01]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Yes, you are correct.

If the front speakers are set to LARGE and the subwoofer to YES, the front speakers only receive the low frequencies dedicated to the front channels. They will not receive the LFE channel.

If the front speakers are set to LARGE and the subwoofer to NO, then the front speakers will receive the LFE signal plus the redirected bass from all speakers that are set to SMALL.

It may be beneficial for everyone to read https://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers...anagement.html. There are detailed explanation with helpful diagrams in post #1.

Big Daddy,

On sony receivers they don't have the Subwoofer ON/OFF option, so wouldn't that be dependent on your recievers functions? Or would Sony, when you select your speaker setup as 3/2.0 be the same thing?


I did notice that when you select speaker setup as 2/2, 3/2 or 3/3 or 2/4, and 3/4 I does automatically select LARGE as you speaker stting and doesn't allow you set a crossover, so it must be Sony version of the same thing.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by callas01

Big Daddy,

On sony receivers they don't have the Subwoofer ON/OFF option, so wouldn't that be dependent on your recievers functions? Or would Sony, when you select your speaker setup as 3/2.0 be the same thing?


I did notice that when you select speaker setup as 2/2, 3/2 or 3/3 or 2/4, and 3/4 I does automatically select LARGE as you speaker stting and doesn't allow you set a crossover, so it must be Sony version of the same thing.

What I stated before applies to receivers that have the more advanced bass management systems and allow you to change the crossovers of all the speakers in addition to the low pass filter of LFE.

On some of the older receivers (such as Sony 720, 820, and 920), you may have other classifications for Yes or No and there is usually one crossover setting that aplies to all the speakers and the subwoofer. My guess is that when you choose 3/2.0, that is probably equivalent to No for the subwoofer and the front speakers would have to be set to Large. Even on the receivers that have the Yes or No option for the subwoofer, when you set the subwoofer to No, the front speakers are set to Large by default. On most of them you cannot change them to Small.

Check the Sony's manual and see if you can get any information.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by jaeelarr

Are you saying that full range towers cant play LFE frequencies? That doesn't seem right to me.

No, what I was stating was in the context that you would still use your PSW10 sub, therefore I was implying that your subwoofer would be set to Yes. As Big Daddy stated, setting your speakers to Large and the Subwoofer to "No", this would then redirect the LFE to your fronts.

[Johk]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

If the front speakers are set to LARGE and the subwoofer to NO, then the front speakers will receive the LFE signal plus the redirected bass from all speakers that are set to SMALL.

Well I learn something today...

I still think it's still better to use your Polk PSW10 instead of setting your fronts to full range. But you can still try it and judge by yourself.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by Johk

Well I learn something today...

I still think it's still better to use your Polk PSW10 instead of setting your fronts to full range. But you can still try it and judge by yourself.

I think that is some of the best advise there is Johk. as long as you are not going to put your gear or your hearing (or that of others) at risk, experiment and see (or hear) what is best to you. It's your stuff, not ours and what sounds right for anyone at this forum may not sound right for you. what you should do is go ahead and try out some of these different things, keep a written log and whatever sounds best to you, let us know. There truly is no right or wrong answer in what sounds best to you. don't be pressured (i sure hope folks don't start running with it since i used the word pressured, please lets not turn this into one of those things!) into settling for what you are told is law. again as long as your not endangering your gear or your ears try it. I do not have the "traditional" settings with my gear and i like it that way because it sounds good to me. i've tried many a setting too and finally found what sounds best to me.

so, sharpen a pencil, get to work and report back to us what you find out and what you like the best and stand up for it and own it; be your own man/person (almost forgot we have ladies here too!) with a choice made based on tried suggestions of others and your own actual listening test.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Johk

Well I learn something today...

John,

Are you being sarcastic?

[Johk]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

John,

Are you being sarcastic?

No, of course not.

Since I've never had a setup without a sub, I didn't thought that the LFE info would be transfered to the speakers set to large. I should have checked it out first.

Sorry if I sounded sarcastic, I (and a lot of people here) value your comments and input

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Johk

No, of course not. Since I've never had a setup without a sub, I didn't thought that the LFE info would be transfered to the speakers set to large.

Ok, most people with a sub never think about a setup without one.

[Beaner666]

Originally Posted by Johk

But you can still try it and judge by yourself.

Well the only good thing about being currently unemployed is that I have plenty of time to monkey around with my home theater! Seeing how I do currently have the free time I decided to try my old school JBL towers anyway. Here’s the results:

Good News: If you set your receiver’s speaker settings (at least on my Onkyo 606) to “Full Range” for the front Left and Right and set the Subwoofer to “No” the LFE channel DOES get re-directed to the Front Left and Front Right. I tossed in a DVD with a THX optimizer and ran the test signals. The “LFE rumble” did come from the front L & R speakers.

“Mixed” News: I tossed in a few movies that were guilty of bottoming out my Polk Sub and the JBL towers did perform better, for the most part. They did occasionally bottom out as well, but not as often and not as drastically.

Bad News: While the LFE did successfully re-direct to the main’s it is a “fixed” signal so I cannot adjust the LFE channel via the receiver. It sounds fine but as of right now I have no way to confirm if it is too loud or too low as I don’t own a SPL meter myself, but do I have easy access to one as my brother has one and I can easily borrow it from him.

Bottom Line: Given my current options of running a full 5.1 system with the Polk PSW10 subwoofer or a 5.0 system with my old school JBL TLX171 towers, unfortunately neither is the perfect solution, but the 5.0 with the tower speakers seems to be the “lesser of two evils.”