My speaker shopping experience - Blu-ray Forum

cravnsn · 08-27-2008, 01:44 AM

As I have been listening to my Insignia NS-B2111 speakers of late, I’ve felt there was something missing. They image really well, have great bass and a wide, tall soundstage. But it always seemed there was missing detail. I spent far too many hours scouring the ads on craigslist.com & eBay. I even considered some Fostex full range speakers.

Then I decided to take time to go & listen to some speakers at local shops. I’ve been into music for as long as I can remember, and home theater since there was such a thing. I have a passion which sometimes grows into full blown obsession for audio gear. I am also married 21+ years with two kids, and a mountain of debt, some of which goes back to the early days of feeding my desire for audio gear.

So, I set out with a small budget of $250. I’m looking for a pair of bookshelf speakers, or two center channel speakers I could stand on end, and make a small MTM set. Detail was paramount, but also all the things that make a speaker good - imaging, soundstage & a good balance of tone. My stops included Best Buy, Circuit City, Ultimate Electronics (formerly Audio King) and Guitar Center. I’m sure you’re all familiar with BB & CC, Ultimate’s offerings would fall between a big box store and an audio “salon”. But hey, what’s up with Guitar Center? I knew they sell studio monitors, so I thought it was worth looking into. All 4 stores were within 5 miles of each other, which made it all the easier.
I knew going into it that listening to speakers set up in rows on shelves wired through a switchbox in a noisy environment is NOT ideal - but a good starting point. I am also aware that $250 isn’t going to get me much in the way of quality sound. But hey, it was worth a try, right?

So, what did I discover?

1. The only place metal has in speakers is the binding posts & screws. They don’t belong in drivers.
2. Horns are for cars.
3. Auditioning speakers in a “big box store” SUCKS!
4. There are not many speakers in this price range that sound at all good.
5. The Insignia speakers I believed in so much aren’t very good after all (there, I said it!)
6. Those little $50 Sony speakers with the H.O.P. woofer & nano-fine tweeter SUCK!
7. Boston Acoustics still makes some nice sounding speakers
8. A name badge is NO guarantee of sound quality
9. Mirages omni polar technology is neat, for surround sound. The effect is too much for front mains
10. The studio monitors ALL use fabric dome tweeters.

And the most important finding…THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE FOR IN PERSON AUDITIONING!!!

I know it’s been mentioned in these & other audio threads thousands of times, but you can not decide on which speakers will sound good to you unless you hear them in person. It’s OK to get some names as a starting point, but you should audition as many different speakers as possible. What sounds good to you is likely different than what sounds good to me, your friend, anyone here…etc.
Get a good reference point - listen to live acoustic music. Listen to the everyday sounds that are all around you. Close your eyes, and really tune into the sounds - the tonality, direction, spatial cues…everything that makes real sounds real.
Take someone along who may not care too much for audio gear - sometimes someone who isn’t “critical listening” may pick up on some sonic quality you’ve overlooked ( my wife has done this several times - and been right). Either pick a store with a 100% money back return policy, or one which will allow in home auditioning. You need to hear the speakers in your listening room with your equipment. Ideally, they will let you take home a floor demo model - this way the speaker will be broken in. You can not judge a speaker fresh out of the box - it will sound different after 10, 30, 50 or even 100 hours of use.

For me, I now know I don’t care for metal domes or cones, nor horn loaded tweeters. I had a set of Klipsch back in the day. The detail was incredible, but I soon learned the definition of “listener fatigue”. The Boston’s I listened to are current models. They have a more laid back presentation, which I like. The Polk I heard had an incredible amount of detail, but again, it was too much in my face. Sony, Infinity, Def Tech, Insignia, JBL, etal. All have distinct personalities and characteristics. I had no intention of listening to Bose, but the sales guy at CC insisted I give them a listen, and even though there was some “I need a sub that will melt the welds in my car” on the other side of the wall, I figured sure, why not. As soon as switched to the Bose, my immediate thought was “where did the music go?”
It’s important for me to mention here that these findings are MY OPINIONS and not an absolute last word. Even the best audio equipment in the world can be made to sound bad with bad speakers. Likewise, a well matched set of speakers & associative equipment of a modest price can make for a very nice music & HT setup. My intent is not to put down any of the choices anyone else here has made - if it sounds good to you that’s all that matters - period.

So, I came home empty handed and frustrated. Then I remembered an old pair of AR PS2052 speakers I had sitting in the basement. For the heck of it, I set them up in place of my Insignia’s. The image is solid, the width & depth isn’t as good, and neither is the bass extension. However, the detail is there, and in proper proportions. I also discovered along the way that I much prefer the “phantom center” approach. Even in the higher end store with high $ speakers (hey, I had to give them a listen, right?) the center channel always draws attention to itself. Using just the two front speakers, I get a solid center image, and much more body around instruments, people & the things they interact with. I used the BD version of Independence Day to confirm this - the sound effects panned across the front sound stage with more realism, and I never missed out on any dialogue nor any of the subtle cues about the environment. While in the dedicated listening rooms of the higher end store, I also discovered that even well made high $ floor standing multi-driver speakers call too much attention to themselves.

So in the end, I know if I want to really step up from what I have with the AR speakers, I need to invest more than $250. I’m sure it’s entirely likely that the metal domes in better made speakers ( B&W, Paradigm etc.) could make me change my mind about metal drivers. I’m also sure that other offerings from the same manufacturer can & do sound very different, and I might find something to like in another model. But, for now, I do have the matching center channel speaker for the small bookshelf AR’s, so if anyone has or know someone who is selling an AR PSC25 in good shape so I can make a vertically oriented pair, I’d be very interested in hearing from you.

I know this was a long essay, I hope everyone who read the whole thing (thank you) gets something out of it.

Craig

prerich · 08-27-2008, 02:37 AM

You said it - there is no substitute for personal auditoning. This experience is great - and a great post. Everyone should read it and learn from this experience.

jomari · 08-27-2008, 03:28 AM

no horn bashing! hahaha! on a serious note tho, its a matter of personal preference. it is quite difficult to consider that the norm around here is to offer klipsch as the absolute choice of speakers.

its not difficult to reconsider options, when you have learned how to distinguish or develop a sense of taste in regards to a certain type of speakers.

when does that happen?

well it wont happen until you start auditioning thats for sure.

sure its 'cheaper' to purchase speakers online, it doesnt beat getting that first hand experience to actually 'listen' to them, and learn what goes well for your taste.

some traditional speakerstores actually offer you to take them home, and audition them in your HT area, to find the perfect fit for you. but with our economy dwindling, i highly doubt that still happening.

THATS why i endorse buying locally to further support our diminishing distributors....

Great stuff there posted.

Clark Kent · 08-27-2008, 03:49 AM

Great post full of solid advice. I've thrown a ton of money at achieving perfect sound and personal experience with a speaker is a must. Everyone has different tastes and most likely there is a speaker manufacturer catering to your tastes you don't know about.

Dagger · 08-27-2008, 04:29 AM

Yes audition and be patient with your search. It's easy to get excited with the first home theater set-up / speaker set-up.

One piece of advice that I hear often and is absolutely true is save up for the best fronts you can afford rather than blowing it on a complete 5.1 system in one shot. I see way too often the whole "what's the best 5.1 for $700?" IMO, more speakers doesn't equate to better sound, better speakers equates to better sound.

A lot of people that I know that are into home theater eventually get into the music side of it where 2 channel is the majority of it (w/ the exception of the relatively sparse options of multi channel SACD + you have to get a player, and I just don't think the PS3 will play well if it sounds like crap with red book). With that in mind your stereo fronts are critical and should be the base of any system. - I'm even actually thinking of selling my entire 5.1 set-up just to get a better 2.0 set-up.

cravnsn · 08-27-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagger

Yes audition and be patient with your search. It's easy to get excited with the first home theater set-up / speaker set-up.

One piece of advice that I hear often and is absolutely true is save up for the best fronts you can afford rather than blowing it on a complete 5.1 system in one shot. I see way too often the whole "what's the best 5.1 for $700?" IMO, more speakers doesn't equate to better sound, better speakers equates to better sound.

A lot of people that I know that are into home theater eventually get into the music side of it where 2 channel is the majority of it (w/ the exception of the relatively sparse options of multi channel SACD + you have to get a player, and I just don't think the PS3 will play well if it sounds like crap with red book). With that in mind your stereo fronts are critical and should be the base of any system. - I'm even actually thinking of selling my entire 5.1 set-up just to get a better 2.0 set-up.

Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. Most people venturing out into the HT realm for the first time are already familiar with what makes good stereo sound, so they have a good reference point to start with. As I stated, I prefer the sound staging presented by a “phantom” center, but just about every pair of “front mains” has a matching center speaker. That’s where to concentrate your efforts. Surround matching is less critical, but many people think that all speakers have to be the same to get proper sound.

Consider this – even someone who has had the same surround set up for years probably has surround speakers that haven’t even hit their break in period. That’s because there isn’t as much information going to them!

Driver_King · 08-27-2008, 07:52 PM

I'm thinking about trying the phantom approach for my Technics. They don't have a matching center. Or maybe I could find a good deal on one.

nbxfan · 08-27-2008, 07:56 PM

Much like any equipment for a home theater, it also comes down to where you go. The sales people push what they carry and bash what they don't regardless of wether it is accurate or not. Had that issue when I recently replaced my receiver. Spoke to professional installers and B&M sales people. Good luck with the speakers, I had my professionally installed and knew nothing about the company etc, left it to the guy that did the work. Still happy with them but, don't know if I made a mistake myself.

08-27-2008, 01:44 AM	#1
cravnsn Banned Member since:Aug 2008	My speaker shopping experience As I have been listening to my Insignia NS-B2111 speakers of late, I’ve felt there was something missing. They image really well, have great bass and a wide, tall soundstage. But it always seemed there was missing detail. I spent far too many hours scouring the ads on craigslist.com & eBay. I even considered some Fostex full range speakers. Then I decided to take time to go & listen to some speakers at local shops. I’ve been into music for as long as I can remember, and home theater since there was such a thing. I have a passion which sometimes grows into full blown obsession for audio gear. I am also married 21+ years with two kids, and a mountain of debt, some of which goes back to the early days of feeding my desire for audio gear. So, I set out with a small budget of $250. I’m looking for a pair of bookshelf speakers, or two center channel speakers I could stand on end, and make a small MTM set. Detail was paramount, but also all the things that make a speaker good - imaging, soundstage & a good balance of tone. My stops included Best Buy, Circuit City, Ultimate Electronics (formerly Audio King) and Guitar Center. I’m sure you’re all familiar with BB & CC, Ultimate’s offerings would fall between a big box store and an audio “salon”. But hey, what’s up with Guitar Center? I knew they sell studio monitors, so I thought it was worth looking into. All 4 stores were within 5 miles of each other, which made it all the easier. I knew going into it that listening to speakers set up in rows on shelves wired through a switchbox in a noisy environment is NOT ideal - but a good starting point. I am also aware that $250 isn’t going to get me much in the way of quality sound. But hey, it was worth a try, right? So, what did I discover? 1. The only place metal has in speakers is the binding posts & screws. They don’t belong in drivers. 2. Horns are for cars. 3. Auditioning speakers in a “big box store” SUCKS! 4. There are not many speakers in this price range that sound at all good. 5. The Insignia speakers I believed in so much aren’t very good after all (there, I said it!) 6. Those little $50 Sony speakers with the H.O.P. woofer & nano-fine tweeter SUCK! 7. Boston Acoustics still makes some nice sounding speakers 8. A name badge is NO guarantee of sound quality 9. Mirages omni polar technology is neat, for surround sound. The effect is too much for front mains 10. The studio monitors ALL use fabric dome tweeters. And the most important finding…THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE FOR IN PERSON AUDITIONING!!! I know it’s been mentioned in these & other audio threads thousands of times, but you can not decide on which speakers will sound good to you unless you hear them in person. It’s OK to get some names as a starting point, but you should audition as many different speakers as possible. What sounds good to you is likely different than what sounds good to me, your friend, anyone here…etc. Get a good reference point - listen to live acoustic music. Listen to the everyday sounds that are all around you. Close your eyes, and really tune into the sounds - the tonality, direction, spatial cues…everything that makes real sounds real. Take someone along who may not care too much for audio gear - sometimes someone who isn’t “critical listening” may pick up on some sonic quality you’ve overlooked ( my wife has done this several times - and been right). Either pick a store with a 100% money back return policy, or one which will allow in home auditioning. You need to hear the speakers in your listening room with your equipment. Ideally, they will let you take home a floor demo model - this way the speaker will be broken in. You can not judge a speaker fresh out of the box - it will sound different after 10, 30, 50 or even 100 hours of use. For me, I now know I don’t care for metal domes or cones, nor horn loaded tweeters. I had a set of Klipsch back in the day. The detail was incredible, but I soon learned the definition of “listener fatigue”. The Boston’s I listened to are current models. They have a more laid back presentation, which I like. The Polk I heard had an incredible amount of detail, but again, it was too much in my face. Sony, Infinity, Def Tech, Insignia, JBL, etal. All have distinct personalities and characteristics. I had no intention of listening to Bose, but the sales guy at CC insisted I give them a listen, and even though there was some “I need a sub that will melt the welds in my car” on the other side of the wall, I figured sure, why not. As soon as switched to the Bose, my immediate thought was “where did the music go?” It’s important for me to mention here that these findings are MY OPINIONS and not an absolute last word. Even the best audio equipment in the world can be made to sound bad with bad speakers. Likewise, a well matched set of speakers & associative equipment of a modest price can make for a very nice music & HT setup. My intent is not to put down any of the choices anyone else here has made - if it sounds good to you that’s all that matters - period. So, I came home empty handed and frustrated. Then I remembered an old pair of AR PS2052 speakers I had sitting in the basement. For the heck of it, I set them up in place of my Insignia’s. The image is solid, the width & depth isn’t as good, and neither is the bass extension. However, the detail is there, and in proper proportions. I also discovered along the way that I much prefer the “phantom center” approach. Even in the higher end store with high $ speakers (hey, I had to give them a listen, right?) the center channel always draws attention to itself. Using just the two front speakers, I get a solid center image, and much more body around instruments, people & the things they interact with. I used the BD version of Independence Day to confirm this - the sound effects panned across the front sound stage with more realism, and I never missed out on any dialogue nor any of the subtle cues about the environment. While in the dedicated listening rooms of the higher end store, I also discovered that even well made high $ floor standing multi-driver speakers call too much attention to themselves. So in the end, I know if I want to really step up from what I have with the AR speakers, I need to invest more than $250. I’m sure it’s entirely likely that the metal domes in better made speakers ( B&W, Paradigm etc.) could make me change my mind about metal drivers. I’m also sure that other offerings from the same manufacturer can & do sound very different, and I might find something to like in another model. But, for now, I do have the matching center channel speaker for the small bookshelf AR’s, so if anyone has or know someone who is selling an AR PSC25 in good shape so I can make a vertically oriented pair, I’d be very interested in hearing from you. I know this was a long essay, I hope everyone who read the whole thing (thank you) gets something out of it. Craig Last edited by cravnsn; 08-27-2008 at 10:50 AM.

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08-27-2008, 02:37 AM	#2
prerich Moderator Top ranked HT gallery Top contributor Member since:Dec 2007 Home Theater Gallery:50 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:2	You said it - there is no substitute for personal auditoning. This experience is great - and a great post. Everyone should read it and learn from this experience.

08-27-2008, 03:28 AM	#3
jomari Moderator Top contributor Member since:Nov 2007 Home Theater Gallery:18 Blu-ray reviews: 2 Trading Score:2	no horn bashing! hahaha! on a serious note tho, its a matter of personal preference. it is quite difficult to consider that the norm around here is to offer klipsch as the absolute choice of speakers. its not difficult to reconsider options, when you have learned how to distinguish or develop a sense of taste in regards to a certain type of speakers. when does that happen? well it wont happen until you start auditioning thats for sure. sure its 'cheaper' to purchase speakers online, it doesnt beat getting that first hand experience to actually 'listen' to them, and learn what goes well for your taste. some traditional speakerstores actually offer you to take them home, and audition them in your HT area, to find the perfect fit for you. but with our economy dwindling, i highly doubt that still happening. THATS why i endorse buying locally to further support our diminishing distributors.... Great stuff there posted.

08-27-2008, 03:49 AM	#4
Clark Kent Blu-ray Prince Top contributor Member since:Oct 2007 Location:Metropolis Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:184	Great post full of solid advice. I've thrown a ton of money at achieving perfect sound and personal experience with a speaker is a must. Everyone has different tastes and most likely there is a speaker manufacturer catering to your tastes you don't know about.

08-27-2008, 04:29 AM	#5
Dagger Active Member Member since:Sep 2007	Yes audition and be patient with your search. It's easy to get excited with the first home theater set-up / speaker set-up. One piece of advice that I hear often and is absolutely true is save up for the best fronts you can afford rather than blowing it on a complete 5.1 system in one shot. I see way too often the whole "what's the best 5.1 for $700?" IMO, more speakers doesn't equate to better sound, better speakers equates to better sound. A lot of people that I know that are into home theater eventually get into the music side of it where 2 channel is the majority of it (w/ the exception of the relatively sparse options of multi channel SACD + you have to get a player, and I just don't think the PS3 will play well if it sounds like crap with red book). With that in mind your stereo fronts are critical and should be the base of any system. - I'm even actually thinking of selling my entire 5.1 set-up just to get a better 2.0 set-up.

08-27-2008, 07:52 PM	#7
Driver_King Blu-ray Ninja Top contributor Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Tampa Bay, Florida Home Theater Gallery:96 Blu-ray collection:28 Trading Score:10	I'm thinking about trying the phantom approach for my Technics. They don't have a matching center. Or maybe I could find a good deal on one.

08-27-2008, 07:56 PM	#8
nbxfan Special Member Member since:May 2008 Location:Anaheim, CA Blu-ray collection:246 Blu-ray reviews:12 Trading Score:15	Much like any equipment for a home theater, it also comes down to where you go. The sales people push what they carry and bash what they don't regardless of wether it is accurate or not. Had that issue when I recently replaced my receiver. Spoke to professional installers and B&M sales people. Good luck with the speakers, I had my professionally installed and knew nothing about the company etc, left it to the guy that did the work. Still happy with them but, don't know if I made a mistake myself.

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