Is BD-Java harder to use than HDi?

[Filmmaker85]

I just read this article on IGN. Can anyone explain this to me. Why is BD-Java harder to use I thought websites use Java so...I'm lost here.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/841/841360p1.html

Microsoft Releases Xbox 360 HD-DVD Emulator
New development and testing tool will aid studios in HD-DVD authoring.
by Gerry Block
December 13, 2007 - Microsoft today announced the release of new software that aims to help HD-DVD authoring studios test and develop HD-DVD materials such as HDi-based interactive menus, features, and games. An interesting twist is the fact that the commercial testing software runs on the Xbox 360 and will be distributed via Xbox Live.

Microsoft's Xbox 360 HD-DVD Emulator software allows studios to test HD-DVD movies and interactive content in a virtual environment that also provides debugging tools, rather effectively streamlining the currently established workflow that requires authoring studios to burn new HD-DVD discs every time a revision needs testing, manually seek out bugs, and hand-code programming corrections. The HD-DVD Emulator software runs on standard Xbox 360s and is capable of playing HD-DVD test content from network drives, USB flash drives, and burned optical discs. The licensing fee for the commercial software is $2,999, which equates to a rather absurd number of Microsoft Points.

The announcement is indicative of Microsoft's support for HD-DVD on a tertiary level, but what the Xbox 360 HD-DVD Emulator software tools are really about is helping studios debug interactive features programmed on Microsoft's HDi language for interactive content on HD-DVDs. HDi is not the only means by which advanced features like interactive games and picture-in-picture commentary tracks can be programmed for HD-DVDs, but due to good support on Microsoft's part and a stable feature set, HDi has become the generally favored tool for HD-DVD content creation. Its strengths are particularly apparent in situations in which a movie like "300" is available on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. A glance at the back of the boxes reveals the Blu-ray version lacks almost any interactive features, a consequence of the currently unstable and difficult to use BD-Java and Blu-ray Profile 1.0 / 1.1 development environments.

Microsoft has been testing the software for the past five months with more than 40 commercial authoring studios like Deluxe Digital and NetBlender, apparently rather successfully. NetBlender's CEO, John Harrington, praises the tools: "The authoring process for HD DVD is more complex and expensive than the process for standard DVD, and as with any new technology, it can require a lot of time and resources. In the process of working with the new Xbox 360 HD DVD Player Emulator, we were able to cut the number of test discs needed per month from roughly 200 down to 50, saving more than 100 work hours per month. This positively impacted our business essentially overnight. We estimate we will recoup the low cost of the tool in less than one month's time."

[blix01]

Originally Posted by Filmmaker85

I just read this article on IGN. Can anyone explain this to me. Why is BD-Java harder to use I thought websites use Java so...I'm lost here.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/841/841360p1.html

Bah! I'm a software developer (for the parent company of a certain studio we're familiar with here). I love Java. and its an easy language to develop in. Perhaps its hard for a non-developer (no clue, since I don't fit into that category).
Screw MS and their proprietary HDi crap.

[R2K]

I'm a java software developer too and it's really easy to develop software with. Although I have not done any BD-Java development, I cant see how much more difficult it could be... Java is also something that use to be taught in first year computer science classes here so it cant be hard for new developers to pick up.

Perhaps it's tough for the M$ developers to code in Java

[zed0118]

"Its strengths are particularly apparent in situations in which a movie like "300" is available on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. A glance at the back of the boxes reveals the Blu-ray version lacks almost any interactive features, a consequence of the currently unstable and difficult to use BD-Java and Blu-ray Profile 1.0 / 1.1 development environments."

I take this to be FUD ... and a bit of BS thrown in for good measure.

[john_nemesh]

Its a press release...M$ is trying to make their product look good at the expense of the competition. From what I have read here, Warner is very happy with the developer toolkit for Blu-Ray 1.1 (interactivity and PIP) We will have to hear from the guys actually WRITING this stuff to see which is better, and there is little chance of that until the format war is over.

[john_nemesh]

Originally Posted by zed0118

"Its strengths are particularly apparent in situations in which a movie like "300" is available on both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. A glance at the back of the boxes reveals the Blu-ray version lacks almost any interactive features, a consequence of the currently unstable and difficult to use BD-Java and Blu-ray Profile 1.0 / 1.1 development environments."

I take this to be FUD ... and a bit of BS thrown in for good measure.

Notice they neglect to mention that the Blu-Ray release had LOSSLESS AUDIO!!! and the HD-DUD did not....

[181]

Purely marketing.

The people creating Blu-ray interfaces for movie studios are not idiots. Java may be difficult for the average "web programmer", but Java is a lot easier than some of the lower level languages that these movie studio programmers studied. I think it's great that these discs will use BD-J than a Microsoft implementation of "Advanced Content." Microsoft has a history of not following international standards and I wouldn't be surprised if their implementation was broken in some way.

[JohnGalt]

Originally Posted by blix01

Bah! I'm a software developer (for the parent company of a certain studio we're familiar with here). I love Java. and its an easy language to develop in.

+1 Back in my days as an engineer I did some software development but never had the occasion to use Java until I joined a small company just beginning a new product development cycle. Took about a week to get up to speed on the relevant portions of Java and another six to build most of a prototype of an online content delivery system, mostly without a net or assistance from anyone with experience. Java is one of the easier learning curves out there IMHO.

[lokus]

Are Blu-ray java devleopers not allowed to talk on the forums publicly about their development efforts? Any of you sw developers want to recommend a good java book. Atm I am looking at Java: How to program by Deitel and Deitel. Sorry to go off topic.

[JohnGalt]

Anything I might recommend would be a bit out of date I'm afraid. Just buy one and jump in, you'll learn a lot more wading through the examples than you'll ever learn from the book.

[WickyWoo]

I just don't think a lot of them are on these forums. There are relatively few people who specialize in BD-J right now. Any Java programmer can do it mind you.

Microsoft has switched their strategy in the last month or so to pimping HDi first and foremost, because they want a whole lineup of settop boxes that use HDi for the interface

What they're saying is a half truth

Yes, you need to build up your code libraries for BD-J
Yes, HDi has a whole ton of ready made tools for internet access and PiP

But once a company does it once, you can just drop in your code and go, same as they do with DVDs right now. All my friends who are authors do 70-80% of the time is cut and paste routines they wrote years ago, and the same is true with BD-J

Here's the difference: You have to train people up on HDi, but any Java programmer (of which there are hundreds of thousands out there) can be up to speed on BDJ in a few hours

[blix01]

Just to add to what Wicki said, ya. Even though there isn't a lot of BD-J coders, Java is structured as a base language and the variations are just additional api's. I believe BD-J is a variation similar to ME, which doesn't matter if you "know java". The syntax and base api are the same.
ie: you know one, you pretty much could develop in any of them.
As far as books, I don't use them anymore. I had one good one when I first started called "Java in 21 days" which gave you daily lessons. But that was probably close to 10 yrs ago now and I'm not sure if there is an updated version out. If so, then I would recommend that.
My biggest resource now is simply the web.
http://java.sun.com has links to what you need. The javadoc is there, as well as the different Java installs themselves.

Also get an IDE. Eclipse is probably the most popular. Its free.
I use that one right now. Jbuilder has a free version (based on Eclipse also) and is pretty feature rich and easy.
From java.sun.com, you can download NetBeans. Its probably the easiest to use and has a lot of features. I would recommend that one for someone new to Java. Again, free.

[fronn]

The whole notion that BD-J is somehow more challenging (or even more time consuming and wordier) is silly.

What MS fails to point out when making their claims is that anyone can make a library for BD-J development and sell it or have it for themselves. You only need to do it once (or not even, if you use someone elses) and then it becomes just as easy or easier than HDi (as you have full control with those functions in the library or ones you previous made, and you can end up with a syntax that's easier to do stuff than HDi can allow).

It's classic MS FUD.

BD-J should be praised for it's flexibility, ease of use and overlap with newer broadcast systems (from what I hear)... not panned because there's "too much" functionality if you start from scratch.

[lokus]

I posted this in another thread but figured that I would list it here for anyone interested. Imho, Java is better because of its cross platform capabilities. At the same time, .NET is gaining ground, especially in my company.

http://www.blueboard.com/bluray/

[spicynacho]

My understanding is that HDi is an offshoot of javascript with a toolkit to allow disc publishers to do certain tasks very easily by writing a configuration file. Such as from frame 12345-13456 display a queue that if used by the user brings up PiP feature 3.

Java is a full fledged language, so until someone such as final cut or adobe develops their own toolkits, production teams are on their own.

I still expect thta BD-J will be much better in the long run because while MS is a fierce competitor, if HD DVD became the standard and MS HDi had a monopoly on features, development would come to a screeching halt. The only reason HDi is easier than BD-J is because MS has a squad of developers working on it. BD-J is at the mercy of the market to develop features.

[glenn22]

I'm also a software developer. I've never programmed in Java because I was in the industry before Java really became mainstream. (I mostly program in .NET languages and C) From what I have seen though, Java programming is fairly simple and should not be a problem to create content in. I think that, as with HD-DVDs storage capacity, HDi will max it's potential soon and BD-J will hit it's stride.

[WickyWoo]

A big reason why they went with Java for Blu-ray is because they can later repurpose it to a download version, or anything else because writing a java interpreter is easy. No more re-programming

[CptGreedle]

This is really old news.. being reported on again...

but right now there are not many libraries for BD-java, but HDi is ONLY libraries. As in you are very limited in what you can do with it. But with BD-j, since it is universal, it is also more capable and has more programmers for it. But with HDi it is easier cause it is so limited.
When the studios build up their BD-java libraries, they will be just as easy as HDi but still more capable.

[galz]

Is it true that Disney helped MS develop HDi?

[WickyWoo]

Yes they did. I think they really wanted to use it for some kind of disney settop box movie player/game system as well as HD DVD

That was under Eisner though, Disney is fully behind BDJ