Should I buy this Crossover?

[amason]

I want to get the best performance I can out of my front speakers. I had 7.1 surround sound setup but I moved and the setup is now 5.1. I have Klipsch Synergy speakers and I currently have them bi-wired. One set coming from my receiver and the other from my outlaw 7 channel 125 watt amp. Since I have read and notice very little, if any improvement in bi-wiring so I was looked into bi-amping. I came across this crossover to separate the low and high frequencies on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006GSEMO/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER& v=glance I would like to buy this and use the 6th and 7th channels on my outlaw to power the front speakers. When I read about bi-amping they say to use separate amps but is using a multi channel amp the same? Will I get better sound with this setup because I can increase the gain for example on the low to increase bass to the way I like it? Sorry guys for the long post. Any help is very much appreciated. I am at work and don’t know my receive model off the top of my head, but it’s a Yamaha. If that makes a difference I will post it when I get home.

[StimpsonJCat]

If you are using two different amps (Receiver & Outlaw) then you are already bi-amping the speaker. You are doing it with the speakers passive crossover (you should make sure the connectors between the posts on the speakers are removed). What you are talking about doing is setting up Active crossovers. You would need to remove the speakers passive crossovers to do this. Why don't you just power all 5 channels with the Outlaw?

Also, a multichannel amp is seperate amps packaged together in one package.

When you say one set coming from the AVR and one from the Outlaw do you mean for all 5 speakers? Or just the mains? Can you post pictures of your setup? Also what is the per channel power rating of the AVR?

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by amason

I want to get the best performance I can out of my front speakers. I had 7.1 surround sound setup but I moved and the setup is now 5.1. I have Klipsch Synergy speakers and I currently have them bi-wired. One set coming from my receiver and the other from my outlaw 7 channel 125 watt amp. Since I have read and notice very little, if any improvement in bi-wiring so I was looked into bi-amping. I came across this crossover to separate the low and high frequencies on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006GSEMO/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER& v=glance I would like to buy this and use the 6th and 7th channels on my outlaw to power the front speakers. When I read about bi-amping they say to use separate amps but is using a multi channel amp the same? Will I get better sound with this setup because I can increase the gain for example on the low to increase bass to the way I like it? Sorry guys for the long post. Any help is very much appreciated. I am at work and don’t know my receive model off the top of my head, but it’s a Yamaha. If that makes a difference I will post it when I get home.

I don't think you need it. If you already have an external amp, why not use it and the Yamaha to bi-amp? I can't really say which one of the two should be used to power which set of speakers, as I don't know what speakers or AVR you have, but you don't need this piece of equipment to bi-amp. I believe your Outlaw and Yamaha could sufficiently power your speakers without the need to introduce this to your set-up.

[StimpsonJCat]

This is bi-amping:


(you will notice the connectors are removed from the posts in this picture)

I have my mains bi-amped using the last two channels of my 7.1 receiver in a 5.1 setup.

This configuration still uses the speaker's passive cross over.

The BBE MAX-X2 2 Way Stereo Crossover would replace the speaker's passive cross over with an active one. This would require removing the speakers internal passive cross overs.

Here is an active setup:

As you can see there is no passive crossover inbetween the two drivers. Which your speakers currently have.


You might want to bi-amp the mains with 4 of the channels of the Outlaw and use the last three for the surrounds & center. I don't think you want to configure them for active crossovers....

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

This is bi-amping:

Here is an active setup:

As you can see there is no passive crossover inbetween the two drivers. Which your speakers currently have.

I have never seen this diagram before, thanks StimpsonJCat!

[StimpsonJCat]

This is a good reference for bi-wire/bi-amp.

[amason]

So which is better, an active or passive crossover? Is a passive crossover one that cuts the frequency that the woofer or tweeter can't handle? I really don’t want to open up my speakers and remove anything. It looks like I will be getting a y splitter to split the pre out of both mains to connect four channels to the outlaw. Thanks to you help everyone!

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by amason

So which is better, an active or passive crossover? Is a passive crossover one that cuts the frequency that the woofer or tweeter can't handle? I really don’t want to open up my speakers and remove anything. It looks like I will be getting a y splitter to split the pre out of both mains to connect four channels to the outlaw. Thanks to you help everyone!

I think StimpsonJCat is talking of the connectors that are bridged between both the upper and lower set of posts on the back of the speaker, nothing actually inside of it. And I believe in my opinion that active bi-amping is better as it will provide not only clarity but additional power as well from an external source(s).

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by amason

So which is better, an active or passive crossover? Is a passive crossover one that cuts the frequency that the woofer or tweeter can't handle? I really don’t want to open up my speakers and remove anything. It looks like I will be getting a y splitter to split the pre out of both mains to connect four channels to the outlaw. Thanks to you help everyone!

This does't have anything to do with the subwoofer crossover. This is about dividing the frequencies between the woofer and tweeter. An active crossover is best, but also more expensive (crossover hardware & extra amps). It is also tricky if your speaker isn't setup already for an active crossover. If the speaker has other properties built into the passive crossover it might screw things up when removed. This can be fixed with a DSP (but there is more money involved).

I agree that it is too much trouble to bother with on most speakers. Some high end speakers can be setup with active crossovers already (I know you can order Salks that way). I think the Outlaw will do a good job bi-amping your mains. The bi-amped passive crossover will give you similar benefits to the active version. Just not as much because you can't control the gains on each, etc. Opinons vary widely on this subject. IMHO I think bi-wiring is pointless, passive bi-amping is worth it if you have the extra unused amp channels, and active bi-amping would be great if I win the lottery.

Good luck with your setup!

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I think StimpsonJCat is talking of the connectors that are bridged between both the upper and lower set of posts on the back of the speaker, nothing actually inside of it. And I believe in my opinion that active bi-amping is better as it will provide not only clarity but additional power as well from an external source (which would be your Outlaw amp).

Nope. The connectors are there if you don't bi-wire or passive bi-amp the speakers. Removing them only allows for those two. If you want to setup an active bi-amp you do have to open up the speaker and remove the passive crossover. Unless your speaker is specifically built with an active crossover you can only bi-wire or passive bi-amp. You just want to make sure you remove the connectors if you choose to setup a passive bi-amp. You don't want both amps connected together between the posts...bad things.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I have never seen this diagram before, thanks StimpsonJCat!

See Post #21 and Post #26 in the Bi-Amping & Bi-Wiring thread.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

Nope. The connectors are there if you don't bi-wire or passive bi-amp the speakers. Removing them only allows for those two. If you want to setup an active bi-amp you do have to open up the speaker and remove the passive crossover. Unless your speaker is specifically built with an active crossover you can only bi-wire or passive bi-amp. You just want to make sure you remove the connectors if you choose to setup a passive bi-amp. You don't want both amps connected together between the posts...bad things.

I learn something new everyday..sorry OP!

[-DLS-]

Just carrying over from the Home Theater Photos thread - John72953 suggested I bi-amp my Studio 100's using my XPA-3 and Yamaha 6190.

In the Paradigm speaker manual it stated that bi-amping should always have 2 amplifiers with identical gain or it's speaker to speaker balance will be incorrect if vertically bi-amped and frequency balance incorrect if horizontally bi-amped.

Just wondering if anyone has tried these with a separate, higher rated amp with an off brand AVR rather than two identical amps?

[amason]

Thanks everyone! This was a big help!

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by DLS_222

Just carrying over from the Home Theater Photos thread - John72953 suggested I bi-amp my Studio 100's using my XPA-3 and Yamaha 6190.

In the Paradigm speaker manual it stated that bi-amping should always have 2 amplifiers with identical gain or it's speaker to speaker balance will be incorrect if vertically bi-amped and frequency balance incorrect if horizontally bi-amped.

Just wondering if anyone has tried these with a separate, higher rated amp with an off brand AVR rather than two identical amps?

It all depends on the gain factors of the two amps. In this case I don't think it is a good idea. The benefits of passive bi-amping are not worth the issues this may introduce. Of course you could alway try it and see how it sounds.

[-DLS-]

Thanks or the input. I think I'll leave it alone since there's nothing wrong with it now - like you said why mess with it.

[Animo]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

This is bi-amping:


(you will notice the connectors are removed from the posts in this picture)

I have my mains bi-amped using the last two channels of my 7.1 receiver in a 5.1 setup.

This configuration still uses the speaker's passive cross over.

The BBE MAX-X2 2 Way Stereo Crossover would replace the speaker's passive cross over with an active one. This would require removing the speakers internal passive cross overs.

Here is an active setup:

As you can see there is no passive crossover inbetween the two drivers. Which your speakers currently have.


You might want to bi-amp the mains with 4 of the channels of the Outlaw and use the last three for the surrounds & center. I don't think you want to configure them for active crossovers....

In all of the forums I have visited, aside from posts I have made elsewhere, this would be one of the most comprehensive, spot on explanations for bi-amping I have seen in a long time. It's a shame that too many people think that running 2 amps or 2 speaker cables to the same speaker is bi-amping. The only true method, involves the use of an active crossover between the source and the amplifiers. I have made similar posts so many times, it gets me blue in the face.

I notice you mentioned that you bi-amped your mains with the internal crossovers intact. After so eloquently stating the benefits of actively crossing speakers, isn't this counter-intuitive, or counter productive? To me, this is simply bi-wiring, which IMHO, does absolutely nothing.

I have one critical comment regarding removing the internal crossovers from a speaker. That comment would be that in most cases, experiment with a speaker that is no longer covered by a warranty. I am quite sure that any speaker under a mfg warranty would be immediately voided by doing such a procedure.

Again, Stimpsonnjcat, I would like to thank you for getting the big picture!!

[Animo]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

This is a good reference for bi-wire/bi-amp.

Here's another one http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Animo

In all of the forums I have visited, aside from posts I have made elsewhere, this would be one of the most comprehensive, spot on explanations for bi-amping I have seen in a long time.

I strongly disagree. Why don't read Jomari's Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amping Research Material thread? It has a sticky in Speakers section. Post #1 has detailed explanation of why bi-wiring is not so effective and the difference between active and passive bi-amping.

Also, check posts #Post #25, Post #30, and Post #23. You will find the above pictures in those posts that were made months ago.

[Animo]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I strongly disagree. Why don't read Jomari's Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amping Research Material thread? It has a sticky in Speakers section. Post #1 has detailed explanation of why bi-wiring is not so effective and the difference between active and passive bi-amping.

Also, check posts #Post #25, Post #30, and Post #23. You will find the above pictures in those posts that were made months ago.

Big daddy,

I don't understand your disagreement with my post.....and strong disagreement at that. Granted until your post, I hadn't read every thread on this forum regarding this topic. However, after now doing so, there are a few who mention the same thing I say, including yourself. I am just of the firm belief that bi-amping with an active crossover between the source and the amp, is indeed bi-amping, and is beneficial. Everything else from bi-wiring, passive bi-amping or anything else you want to call it, where the passive crossover of the speaker is being used, is simply posing, and for all intents and purposes, leaves no audible or measurable improvements. Don't agree with me check this link and quote..... http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/109419.html

Will it sound any different if you biwire? Some users think it does, but I've never heard any differences, nor have any of our laboratory measurements or scientifically controlled double blind listening tests ever demonstrated there are audible differences.

Or maybe this link again.... http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

and this quote from that site.....

The Most Common Question About Biamping

The most common question I get is ...

"Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
The answer is ... Yes, otherwise you are not really biamping at all.