Blu-ray with picture "noise"... Confused..

[Killer Cop]

I got two Blu-ray movies, Die Hard 4 and Casino Royale for now, and a rather cheap HD-DVD with 720p & 1080i. While watching the movies which I find very very good, I still can't stop noticing some noise in my Blu-ray movies. It's not only on my TV also in my friend's much more expensive 50" 1080p TV, also the same with his Blu-ray movie (Pirates 3).

The noise I can't stop noticing once in a while, I can't figure out what makes that noise? I have knowledge in picture quality an so on, but I question this..

When you have bright clear scenes like pictures of sky, you easily see this noise. I can try post a picture if you need.

I conclude it's one of three things which cause this; compression noise, camera noise or cable noise.

I would say it's the camera noise. But I don't have a clue. It doesn't look like compression noise, unless it's anoter kind of compression.

Anyone who can explain it furher please?

[Knight-Errant]

Basically the Blu-ray transfers are sharper which reveals more of the original film grain structure. Don't worry, it's supposed to be there.

[Tichols]

Yeah same thing in 300: in some scenes you can hear the accustics of the set, peoples voice are almost echoing .. and in other scenes you can hear the wind blowing into the microphone making an anoying sound :P

[Rustmonsteru]

Originally Posted by Killer Cop

When you have bright clear scenes like pictures of sky, you easily see this noise. I can try post a picture if you need.

No need for a picture. As everyone has said, the "noise" you are addressing is actually the grain of the film the movie was shot on. Bright scenes, and sky shots in particular, show grain.

[Killer Cop]

Oh, thats so nice to hear.

So, my guessing was right.. Haha, nice. Thank you people!

[LoR*Evanescence]

Originally Posted by Rustmonsteru

No need for a picture. As everyone has said, the "noise" you are addressing is actually the grain of the film the movie was shot on. Bright scenes, and sky shots in particular, show grain.

I work in retail and it's hard to convince some people of this. I have seen blu-ray players come back for exchange or return because of this "Grain". I have tried to explain the fact that film can be grainy and that the higher resolution of high definition movies can bring it out, but for those people who are willing to return it because of the grain, there is no convincing them it's normal.

One guy simply put it "My dvd player had a better picture, if there is going to be grain on my blu-ray player it is not the player for me"

I find this very unfortunate that some people find the grain to be that much of a problem. Luckily for the most part people don't take it that seriously and not that vast majority of people love their blu-ray players and don't return them / think the grain is a problem.

To me I love my blu-ray player and only in a couple movies do I notice grain, and its only in some scenes with certain lighting. It's not enough to bug me at all. Does anyone know of a better way to convince these few people grain is not the enemy and a show stopper of blu-ray? One thing I have also noticed is this complaint often comes from people who's first and evaluation movie on blu-ray was 300. I have mentioned that pirates Is perfectly crystal clear another with many other movies but it doesn't seam to be enough.

[Deciazulado]

Some general pointers about grain on photographic film:

A: low light scenes tend to be shot with faster more sensitive film that has more grain than the slower less sensitive film used for brighly lit shots like in daylight.
B: B/W negative film (silver based) tends to be grainier in the highlights (bright parts of the image) while color negative film (dyes) tends to be grainier in the shadows.
C: smooth uniform pastel color areas (like shots of clear blue skies) tend to show more grain.

Electronic noise from digital capture might exhibit similar patterns.

For more reading about grain or noise in images you can peruse this other threads too:


Grain... How to deal with Grain...

Film Grain

I now see film grain

2001, Close Encounters, Pirates - Film Grain

Poll Would you prefer 300 with or without grain?

The "300 is grainy!!" thread

[welwynnick]

I hate grain, but I can't imagine returning a BD player because of it. It's an artifact of the mastering, not the replay. Animations like Chicken Little and Ratatouille have no grain - hurrah! - and show how a player can perform.

This is a quibble of mine, but there are "solutions". I used to use a Sammy 1000 and a Calibre Vantage video processor. The latter has effective temporal, spatial and coec noise reduction, and I found blu-ray discs never looked better. The VP has no knowledge whether the "grain noise" comes from the master or the source, so it filters it out quite nicely.

Some folks may nto chose to do that, I certainly prefer it.

Nick

[emacs]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

I hate grain ... It's an artifact of the mastering, not the replay.

what you are seeing are the particles of silver halide in the film emulsion.

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by emacs

what you are seeing are the particles of silver halide in the film emulsion.

Of course; perhaps mastering wasn’t the right word, but I wanted to make the distinction that grain wasn’t a fault of the replay process, but was a limitation in the original material.

[weazel]

The grainy picture in some movies was driving me insane,as you all know some movies look fantastic others(300,oceans 13) look like crap.After reading multiple forums,and thankfully realizing it wasn't my setup(Bravia/bdp-s300)heres what i have done(for problem movies only),in your tv picture settings menu change the NOISE REDUCTION setting to HIGH,then adjust sharpness setting down to about 1/4. This has greatly improved the picture and stopped me banging my head against the wall,hope this helps some of you.
Cheers
Dave

[Knight-Errant]

Originally Posted by weazel

The grainy picture in some movies was driving me insane,as you all know some movies look fantastic others(300,oceans 13) look like crap.After reading multiple forums,and thankfully realizing it wasn't my setup(Bravia/bdp-s300)heres what i have done(for problem movies only),in your tv picture settings menu change the NOISE REDUCTION setting to HIGH,then adjust sharpness setting down to about 1/4. This has greatly improved the picture and stopped me banging my head against the wall,hope this helps some of you.
Cheers
Dave

If it bothers you so much then I guess that's sensible.

I have 0 problem with film grain however. I'm not saying that as a Blu-ray fan, but as a film fan.

[Lord_Phan]

Originally Posted by LoR*Evanescence

I work in retail and it's hard to convince some people of this. I have seen blu-ray players come back for exchange or return because of this "Grain". I have tried to explain the fact that film can be grainy and that the higher resolution of high definition movies can bring it out, but for those people who are willing to return it because of the grain, there is no convincing them it's normal.

One guy simply put it "My dvd player had a better picture, if there is going to be grain on my blu-ray player it is not the player for me"

I find this very unfortunate that some people find the grain to be that much of a problem. Luckily for the most part people don't take it that seriously and not that vast majority of people love their blu-ray players and don't return them / think the grain is a problem.

To me I love my blu-ray player and only in a couple movies do I notice grain, and its only in some scenes with certain lighting. It's not enough to bug me at all. Does anyone know of a better way to convince these few people grain is not the enemy and a show stopper of blu-ray? One thing I have also noticed is this complaint often comes from people who's first and evaluation movie on blu-ray was 300. I have mentioned that pirates Is perfectly crystal clear another with many other movies but it doesn't seam to be enough.

Tell them the idiots who made 300 put the grain there on purpose and to watch a better movie.

[corky]

Like photography grain or noise is more noticeable when too much sharpening is applied also when you're trying to bring out details in the shadow areas.
To reduce the amount of grain that you're seeing try lowering your sharpening to none and properly calibrate your TV. If the noise is still bothering after all that then maybe you're sitting to close your TV.
(Blu-ray is sharp as-is and doesn't need more sharpening added from your set)

[Lee Christie]

Originally Posted by LoR*Evanescence

I work in retail and it's hard to convince some people of this. I have seen blu-ray players come back for exchange or return because of this "Grain". I have tried to explain the fact that film can be grainy and that the higher resolution of high definition movies can bring it out, but for those people who are willing to return it because of the grain, there is no convincing them it's normal.

One guy simply put it "My dvd player had a better picture, if there is going to be grain on my blu-ray player it is not the player for me"

I find this very unfortunate that some people find the grain to be that much of a problem. Luckily for the most part people don't take it that seriously and not that vast majority of people love their blu-ray players and don't return them / think the grain is a problem.

Film grain really bugs me. Would I be right in thinking that a professional calibration of your display could minimise the noticability? Turning the brightness down seems to reduce it on my display.

Anyway, i'm just dieing to see FF: Advent Children in HD. CGI dosn't have grain. That film should look awsome. And I might consider watching it subtitled instead of dubbed when I get it - see what all the fuss is about.

One thing i wonder, what about movies which are live action, but contain A LOT of CGI mixed in, like The Matrix, surely film grain on the live action would make it stand out from the CGI, theirfor making the CGI look "too perfect" by comparison and make the scene look as if it had been badly photoshopped. I guess they'd either have to use an camera that doesn't suffer from that problem, or just cheat by adding CGI pretend grain.

[aristotles]

Try playing with the picture controls. Most TVs ship with sharpness turned up. If turn down or off the sharpen, you should get a picture closer to what you would see in the theatre.

The default settings make DVDs and analogue TV look sharper but can be too much for blu-ray.

[yyyiiikes]

Originally Posted by LoR*Evanescence

Does anyone know of a better way to convince these few people grain is not the enemy and a show stopper of blu-ray?

Have you shown them Cars?

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by aristotles

Try playing with the picture controls. Most TVs ship with sharpness turned up. If turn down or off the sharpen, you should get a picture closer to what you would see in the theatre.

The default settings make DVDs and analogue TV look sharper but can be too much for blu-ray.

Yeah, sharpness should be labeled "Grain Enhancer" in your settings.

[Knight-Errant]

Originally Posted by Lee Christie

One thing i wonder, what about movies which are live action, but contain A LOT of CGI mixed in, like The Matrix, surely film grain on the live action would make it stand out from the CGI, theirfor making the CGI look "too perfect" by comparison and make the scene look as if it had been badly photoshopped. I guess they'd either have to use an camera that doesn't suffer from that problem, or just cheat by adding CGI pretend grain.

That's why grain is added to FX shots to make it all match up.

[Lee Christie]

Does anyone else see grain on Final Fantasy: Spirits Within? AVF's Review of the disc says there's none, and I wouldn't expect any, but I'm sure I see just as much as in live-action.

Are I hallucinating, or did they add simulated grain to that movie and the reviewers at AVF are just blind? I swear I see it, you only have to look at the landscape in the opening dream sequence, it's very visible there, and though the rest of the movie too.

Here's my calibration on NVIDIA control panel:

Use Colour Settings: Off
RGB Gamma: Off
Edge Enhancement: +0%
Noise Reduction: +0%
Use Inverse Telecine: Off

And my monitor I reset to factory defaults.