Double Bass, LFE+Main: Receivers sending Bass to Both Fronts and Sub?

[ozzman]

I put this thread under speakers because iam wondering about sending my bass to fronts and sub.
I guess i could put this under the Receiver thread or even Subwoofers.
I just picked Speakers- (Moderators If iam in the wrong forum please feel free to place this where you think this thread would benefit the most )

I've had my bass set to SWFR.I have a choice from that to FRONT or BOTH.
My question is -

Now all my speakers are set to small ,when setting the bass to BOTH are my fronts still small ?

I get very confused with this

Iam so use to just having my sub do all the work can i benefit with setting BOTH ?

Is there anyone out there that prefers this setting over just setting SWFr?

Any Feedback on this subject would be appreciated

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by ozzman

I put this thread under speakers because iam wondering about sending my bass to fronts and sub

I've had my bass set to SWFR.I have a choice from that to FRONT or BOTH.
My question is -

Now all my speakers are set to small ,when setting the bass to BOTH are my fronts still small ?

I get very confused with this

Iam so use to just having my sub do all the work can i benefit with setting BOTH ?

Is there anyone out there that prefers this setting over just setting SWFr?

Any Feedback on this subject would be appreciated

The BOTH setting on your Yammy sounds like my LFE+Main setting on my Denon.

For my Denon LFE+Main only works if the mains are set to Large (If they are Small it will be the same as the LFE setting). It sends the bass below the Mains cross over to both the Mains and the sub. From what I've read most suggest not doing this because the double bass doesn't usually sound good.

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

The BOTH setting on your Yammy sounds like my LFE+Main setting on my Denon.

For my Denon LFE+Main only works if the mains are set to Large (If they are Small it will be the same as the LFE setting). It sends the bass below the Mains cross over to both the Mains and the sub. From what I've read most suggest not doing this because the double bass doesn't usually sound good.

Interesting,
See if i set the fronts to large i should be getting the bass out of my fronts without setting my Bass to BOTH, NO ?

If i set my fronts to large and didn't have my bass come out of my fronts (setting to just sub) Why would anyone even bother setting them to large ?

I thought Large meant that. For example if i set my rears to large . I don't have to go into any setting ,Large is just that Large ?

What am i not understanding ?

[ozzman]

I just did some research and your right about the speakers need to be large to benefit with setting BOTH.I don't understand it? but thats the facts.

I found this-10 questions down

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/faq/faqdet...4&CTID=5009140

I guess i just don't understand why would anyone set it to large if they didn't use the BOTH setting for Bass ? Weird

[blurayisking]

Originally Posted by ozzman

I just did some research and your right about the speakers need to be large to benefit with setting BOTH.I don't understand it? but thats the facts.

I found this-10 questions down

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/faq/faqdet...4&CTID=5009140

I guess i just don't understand why would anyone set it to large if they didn't use the BOTH setting for Bass ?

Setting the front speakers to LARGE (assuming they are capable to producing noticeable bass) and setting the bass option to BOTH gives you essentially a " bass boost ". When the front speakers are set to LARGE, they are no longer limited by the cross-over setting on your receiver and therefore produce the full frequency range.

I've tried both ways and I prefer the BOTH setting. The difference is quite noticeable to the ear.

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by ozzman

Interesting,
See if i set the fronts to large i should be getting the bass out of my fronts without setting my Bass to BOTH, NO ?

If i set my fronts to large and didn't have my bass come out of my fronts (setting to just sub) Why would anyone even bother setting them to large ?

I thought Large meant that. For example if i set my rears to large . I don't have to go into any setting ,Large is just that Large ?

What am i not understanding ?

Yes, if you set the fronts to Large you will get all the bass in you mains (but none will go to the sub except the LFE and whatever is crossed over from the other speakers). If you choose Both the Mains still get all the bass, but the Sub will also get the bass going to the Mains).

I don't think Both is a good idea. If you want to run your Mains Large I wouldn't bother sending double bass to the Sub.

But, personally I don't think you should use Large for any speaker. Even if the speaker can go really low I would still set Small with a cross over. Just lower the cross over to fit the speaker's range.

When it comes to the lower frequencies your Sub will usually outperform the speakers even if they go that low. Also, by setting the cross over you are freeing up the speakers to concentrate on the sound above the cross over. In my case my AVR's EQ dedicates more processing to the Sub's EQ so a higher cross over (80Hz) will result in better EQ for everything below it.

[Texitura]

Here is what the book on my Yamaha receiver says:

Select "SWFR" if you connected a subwoofer. The LFE signals as well as the low-frequency signals of other speakers set to "SML" or to "NONE" are directed to the subwoofer.

Select "FRNT" if you did not connect a subwoofer. The LFE signals, the low-frequency signals of the front left and right channels, and the low-frequency signals of other speakers set to "SML" or to "NONE" are all directed to the front left and right speakers regardless of the "FRONT SP" setting (small or large).

Select "BOTH" if you connected a subwoofer. The low-frequency signals of any source are output from the subwoofer. The LFE signals as well as the low-frequency signals of other speakers set to "SML" or to "NONE" are directed to the subwoofer. The low-frequency signals of the front left and right channels are directed to the front left and right speakers and the subwoofer regardless of the "FRONT SP" setting (small or large).


Does that help any?

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by ozzman

I just did some research and your right about the speakers need to be large to benefit with setting BOTH.I don't understand it? but thats the facts.

I found this-10 questions down

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/faq/faqdet...4&CTID=5009140

I guess i just don't understand why would anyone set it to large if they didn't use the BOTH setting for Bass ? Weird

If your Mains are truely Large then why would you need to send anything to the Sub. The problem is there are very few Mains that can actually handle the lower frequencies with authority.

Here is a quote by Chris from Audyssey from this article's feedback:

LFE+Main or Double Bass is an option that was specifically created by AVR makers to appease customers who were personally “offended” when their speakers were designated Small. With this option, the bass from the supposed Large speakers is not lost and is redirected to the subwoofer. The problem is that in the overlap frequency region between the sub and the speaker the bass is doubled and therefore not correct. Having a sub is only beneficial if the content between it and the satellite speakers is properly spliced so the blend doesn’t cause issues. Just playing the same content from both doesn’t do that.

Yes, there is a benefit in distributing the bass from multiple sources. But the only way to do that correctly is with more than one subwoofer.

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

Yes, if you set the fronts to Large you will get all the bass in you mains (but none will go to the sub except the LFE and whatever is crossed over from the other speakers). If you choose Both the Mains still get all the bass, but the Sub will also get the bass going to the Mains).

I don't think Both is a good idea. If you want to run your Mains Large I wouldn't bother sending double bass to the Sub.

But, personally I don't think you should use Large for any speaker. Even if the speaker can go really low I would still set Small with a cross over. Just lower the cross over to fit the speaker's range.



When it comes to the lower frequencies your Sub will usually outperform the speakers even if they go that low. Also, by setting the cross over you are freeing up the speakers to concentrate on the sound above the cross over. In my case my AVR's EQ dedicates more processing to the Sub's EQ so a higher cross over (80Hz) will result in better EQ for everything below it.

O.K here it goes,tell me if iam getting it

LFE is separate from the front speakers BASS.

When setting small (and bass management is set to SWFR.)The lfe is combined with the Bass that would go to the frnt speakers and is all redirected to the sub.

The important thing here which alot of people get confused is LFE and frnt bass is too different things.

Am i close ?

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by ozzman

O.K here it goes,tell me if iam getting it

LFE is separate from the front speakers BASS.

When setting small (and bass management is set to SWFR.)The lfe is combined with the Bass that would go to the frnt speakers and is all coming out of just the sub.

The important thing here which alot of people get confused is LFE and frnt bass is too different things.

Am i close ?

Correct. The LFE channel is the .1 in 5.1 (or 7.1) and is only going to the Sub. The cross over determines what goes to the speaker and what goes to the sub from that speakers channel.

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

Correct. The LFE channel is the .1 in 5.1 (or 7.1) and is only going to the Sub. The cross over determines what goes to the speaker and what goes to the sub from that speakers channel.

I get it.
See I have my speakers set to small and bass management to sub.
I just didn't understand the other options.
Thank you for helping me understand guys

[d.white]

so, should the bass come from both or just the sub, and do you set the speakers to small.

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by d.white

so, should the bass come from both or just the sub, and do you set the speakers to small.

In the end your system should be setup to produce the sound you like. What AVR, Speakers, and Sub you have makes a difference as well.

The LFE channel and the bass below the cross over setting for the speakers (if set to Small) will go to the Sub.

For most systems it is best to set the speakers to Small and to NOT apply "double bass" (so don't set the Sub/Bass to Both (Yamaha) or LFE+Main (Denon)). You can always try the "double bass" setting (with the Mains set to Large) to see if you like the sound.

A cross over setting of 80 Hz is usually the best starting point for your speakers. (If you have satellites that don't go down very low you will want to set this higher - ~ 10 Hz above the lowest frequency in their range).

The Subs LPF of LFE will usually be set at 120 Hz. This will pass whatever bass is below this frequency in the LFE channel to the sub. It has nothing to do with the speaker cross over settings.

You should read through Big Daddy's bass management sticky.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by Texitura

Here is what the book on my Yamaha receiver says:

Select "BOTH" if you connected a subwoofer. The low-frequency signals of any source are output from the subwoofer. The LFE signals as well as the low-frequency signals of other speakers set to "SML" or to "NONE" are directed to the subwoofer. The low-frequency signals of the front left and right channels are directed to the front left and right speakers and the subwoofer regardless of the "FRONT SP" setting (small or large).
Does that help any?

Just to clarify, the only time BOTH will be active is when you have dictated the fronts set as LARGE, sending the LFE signal to both the subwoofer and the Front speakers. this is not capable when setting the FRONTS to SMALL.

When set to SMALL the crossover settings then become ACTIVE, and allow you to utilize the bass management found in the AVR. you CANNOT set the DOUBLE BASS or whatever you call it, when you have the bass management handling the crossover settings.

In summary, you have three options
1. Front speakers : LARGE
LFE Variation : Sent to subwoofer
Result: SPeakers are receiving full bandwidth, LFE sent to Sub

2. Front Speakers: Large
LFE Variation : BOTH
Result: Front speakers are receiving full bandwidth PLUS LFE signal, LFE is also sent to sub

3. Front Speakers: SMALL
LFE Variation : Sent to Subwoofer (BOTH/Double Bass is DISABLED)
Result : Bass management set by CROSSOVER settings, Fronts receiving any signal ABOVE crossover point, LFE receives everything under and then some (for the roll off points)...

in any case, id also prefer having the subwoofer handle the LFE signal, and let its amplifier do the heavy lifting, while your AVR focuses on the other speakers.

second, its difficult enough to handle one point of origin for your LFE signals, what more three?

Just a thought.

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by d.white

so, should the bass come from both or just the sub, and do you set the speakers to small.

My front speakers go below 30hz and i still set them to small.
Using my sub(s) for all my bass. I find i get a cleaner sound.
I also like the idea of having total control of my bass.(useing just the subs)

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by jomari

Just to clarify, the only time BOTH will be active is when you have dictated the fronts set as LARGE, sending the LFE signal to both the subwoofer and the Front speakers. this is not capable when setting the FRONTS to SMALL.

When set to SMALL the crossover settings then become ACTIVE, and allow you to utilize the bass management found in the AVR. you CANNOT set the DOUBLE BASS or whatever you call it, when you have the bass management handling the crossover settings.

In summary, you have three options
1. Front speakers : LARGE
LFE Variation : Sent to subwoofer
Result: SPeakers are receiving full bandwidth, LFE sent to Sub

2. Front Speakers: Large
LFE Variation : BOTH
Result: Front speakers are receiving full bandwidth PLUS LFE signal, LFE is also sent to sub

3. Front Speakers: SMALL
LFE Variation : Sent to Subwoofer (BOTH/Double Bass is DISABLED)
Result : Bass management set by CROSSOVER settings, Fronts receiving any signal ABOVE crossover point, LFE receives everything under and then some (for the roll off points)...

in any case, id also prefer having the subwoofer handle the LFE signal, and let its amplifier do the heavy lifting, while your AVR focuses on the other speakers.

second, its difficult enough to handle one point of origin for your LFE signals, what more three?

Just a thought.

I like your 1,2,3.Very well put
Just wondering whats your settings and whats your crossover.I kept mine simply with 80 hz.

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by jomari

Just to clarify, the only time BOTH will be active is when you have dictated the fronts set as LARGE, sending the LFE signal to both the subwoofer and the Front speakers. this is not capable when setting the FRONTS to SMALL.

When set to SMALL the crossover settings then become ACTIVE, and allow you to utilize the bass management found in the AVR. you CANNOT set the DOUBLE BASS or whatever you call it, when you have the bass management handling the crossover settings.

In summary, you have three options
1. Front speakers : LARGE
LFE Variation : Sent to subwoofer
Result: SPeakers are receiving full bandwidth, LFE sent to Sub

2. Front Speakers: Large
LFE Variation : BOTH
Result: Front speakers are receiving full bandwidth PLUS LFE signal, LFE is also sent to sub

3. Front Speakers: SMALL
LFE Variation : Sent to Subwoofer (BOTH/Double Bass is DISABLED)
Result : Bass management set by CROSSOVER settings, Fronts receiving any signal ABOVE crossover point, LFE receives everything under and then some (for the roll off points)...

in any case, id also prefer having the subwoofer handle the LFE signal, and let its amplifier do the heavy lifting, while your AVR focuses on the other speakers.

second, its difficult enough to handle one point of origin for your LFE signals, what more three?

Just a thought.

For my Denon's LFE+Main setting it doesn't send the LFE to the mains. You do have to have the Mains set to Large, but it just means whatever is below the Mains cross over is sent to the sub along with the LFE (and of course everything from the mains channel is sent to the mains because they are set to Large).

This may be different on the Yammy or other AVRs.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by ozzman

I like your 1,2,3.Very well put
Just wondering whats your settings and whats your crossover.I kept mine simply with 80 hz.

mines set at
Speaker setting : Small
Crossover setting: 50hz
Result: anything around 50hz and below goes to my subwoofer, with my fronts and center playing above it.

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

For my Denon's LFE+Main setting it doesn't send the LFE to the mains. You do have to have the Mains set to Large, but it just means whatever is below the Mains cross over is sent to the sub along with the LFE (and of course everything from the mains channel is sent to the mains because they are set to Large).

This may be different on the Yammy or other AVRs.

hmm. to clarify stimpy, if you set LFE+Main, speakers set at large, LFE goes to the subwoofer but doesnt that also mean the LFE is going into the Mains as well? if we can assume that the LFE signal can be produced by it.

for example, if we set crossover set at 120hz, and LFE+Main, frequencies at 80hz should go to the LFE AND the fronts, right?

[StimpsonJCat]

Originally Posted by jomari

mines set at
Speaker setting : Small
Crossover setting: 50hz
Result: anything around 50hz and below goes to my subwoofer, with my fronts and center playing above it.



hmm. to clarify stimpy, if you set LFE+Main, speakers set at large, LFE goes to the subwoofer but doesnt that also mean the LFE is going into the Mains as well? if we can assume that the LFE signal can be produced by it.

for example, if we set crossover set at 120hz, and LFE+Main, frequencies at 80hz should go to the LFE AND the fronts, right?

I can't say that I'm 100% sure, but I don't think the LFE will go to the Mains with any setting as long as you have a Subwoofer set up. The LFE/LFE+Main setting is for the subwoofer. If the Mains are set to Large and the Subwoofer setting is LFE+Main then the Subwoofer will get the LFE + the bass below the Mains cross over. I don't think it also means the mains will get the LFE. The LPF of LFE is not a cross over setting. Just a low pass filter for the LFE channel. Of course I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

Edit: this might not apply to other AVRs. I talking about the settings on my Denon.

[jomari]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat

I can't say that I'm 100% sure, but I don't think the LFE will go to the Mains with any setting as long as you have a Subwoofer set up. The LFE/LFE+Main setting is for the subwoofer. If the Mains are set to Large and the Subwoofer setting is LFE+Main then the Subwoofer will get the LFE + the bass below the Mains cross over. I don't think it also means the mains will get the LFE. The LPF of LFE is not a cross over setting. Just a low pass filter for the LFE channel. Of course I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

Edit: this might not apply to other AVRs. I talking about the settings on my Denon.

Lets not get into the LPF part. thats another chapter and might confuse others in this thread. Hopefully we can focus on the LFE signal, and the double bass (or what have you), component of the receiver.

i cant look into your manual stimpy, but i think that the reason why we have these double bass LFE+mains is when we want to 'add' the LFE signal towards the mains. it IS tho dependent if your speakers are set to large, and its crossover settings if active or not. (which in all likelihood will disable the LFE Plus stuff when you set the speakers to SMALL)

The LPF of LFE is not a cross over setting. Just a low pass filter for the LFE channel. Of course I could be wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

Edit: this might not apply to other AVRs. I talking about the settings on my Denon.

you are correct, the LFE+Main and/or Double Bass or Sub+ is not associated with the crossover. To clarify, these settings once again are only available if

Speaker is set to LARGE
and in effect, Crossovers are DISABLED.

this only directs or redirects where the LFE signal would go aside from the subwoofer.

Sorry, pretty darn busy at work...

I do like the conversation, entertaining and educational to say the least.