What is your idea of 'Reference Level'?

[Dieselboy]

I know this question is probably more subjective than definative, but just the same what is 'your' definiton/idea of what people around here commonly refer to as 'reference level'?

Once in a while I really like to crank up a good movie when my wife's not around...I recently got the new blu ray of 'Heat' and was watching the infamous robbery scene pretty loud. I decided to get out the ol' SPL meter and see where it was at for point of reference- anyways it registered between 95 and 105db with my Elite reciever's volume set at +5.0DB- it could've gone a little louder (maybe another 5db), but this was about as loud as I wanted without it 'hurting' my ears so to speak. That and the neighbor's probably thought that World War III just broke out in my place!

[dewd]

What I call Reference Level is actually Film Reference. This is the level that the film mixer hears when mixing the movie. It is defined as 105db for everything but the LFE channel (which is 115db). These are the peaks that a movie can hit. Normally, the movie plays way below these with the highest SPL reserved for action scenes.

This is WAY too loud for most folks. So the band limited tones in your AVR are normally -30dbfs. This means they play at 75db. Sometimes you will get tones that are -20db. I've seen this with a few setup discs (I don't recommend using a disc to calibrate you system, but that is a different topic). A properly calibrated system will play at 'reference level' when the volume is set to 0.

So for a system to hit 'reference level', it must be capable of producing 105 db peaks at your listening position. You sub has to hit 115db. This is a very difficult thing to do since it takes a lot of power.

[Fors*]

My own personal "reference" is whatever I decided to set my SPL meter at 75db's. So whatever the master volume says when the SPL meter reads 75db's is what I call my "reference."

[elninoloco7]

My "PERSONAL" meaning of reference level is when it comes to Audio and Picture.

FIRST OFF-My home theater is well calibrated audio and video wise. That’s also a biggy and makes a huge difference on how a movie is looks and sounds.

VIDEO wise, i look for the quality of the high definition image, from the colors to the blacks. (for ex. in the blacks some movies i see its kind of grainy, but like for example the new Star Trek, i would consider reference picture because the blacks are just smooth and the colors is just so natural, well balanced)(The OLD Fifth Element movie is far from reference as the image just wasn’t the best, the blacks are very grainy, and the colors are just really dull, im glad they fixed that with the newer and improved Fifth Element Blu ray)

AUDIO - wise I’m pretty picky. I must be able to hear every single of my 7 speakers work and how balanced it is. Then the subwoofer is another. Sometimes movies are just too Loud, and they OVER use the LFE, which creates distortion or making other speakers hard to hear. Some movies just don’t use their surrounds as much when I feel it needs to. I also listen for how realistic the sound is as well as the voice of the character to see if its soft loud or just right. For example the new Star Trek movie the audio is just fantastic. Every speaker is heard (even though its decoded in TruHD I have it set as TruHD with matrix, my two rear speakers, on)The subwoofer is extremely well balanced with all the other speakers, and surrounds are just active all the time. It’s very easy to hear and understand the dialog of the movie as well, final word Reference quality movie in audio.

[Rob J in WNY]

Where as "true" reference-level audio is that achieved at 0dB (on a properly calibrated audio system, as previously posted), it is true that most people would find 0dB levels (not hushed moments, but peak sounds) painful and uncomfortable rather quickly.

For me, it depends on the movie (such a variety of differing recording levels throughout the many titles), but it's all encompassing enough to say that my own, personal reference-level listening occurs at volume settings varying from -18dB to -12dB. It's physically very loud, but within my comfort zone in all but the most sudden, unexpected (often exciting) moments, but there is no lack of detail during the most quiet program material (thanks largely to the resolution of lossless/uncompressed audio).

[Another_Dude]

Reference isn't subjective...which is why it is reference.

[dewd]

Originally Posted by Rob J in WNY

Where as "true" reference-level audio is that achieved at 0dB (on a properly calibrated audio system, as previously posted), it is true that most people would find 0dB levels (not hushed moments, but peak sounds) painful and uncomfortable rather quickly.

I disagree with this statement. If everything is setup correctly (flat), then 105/115 db peaks are not that loud. I have measured 110db during "Master and Commander" and found it to be quite enjoyable.

Where it gets uncomfortable is when you have dips and peaks in your response (or your system can't keep up and it clips). That's why I strive to makes my system as flat as possible.

How many times do you find a movie at a theater too loud? They play at film reference (at least the better ones do - THX certified).

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by dewd

I disagree with this statement. If everything is setup correctly (flat), then 105/115 db peaks are not that loud. I have measured 110db during "Master and Commander" and found it to be quite enjoyable.

Where it gets uncomfortable is when you have dips and peaks in your response (or your system can't keep up and it clips). That's why I strive to makes my system as flat as possible.

How many times do you find a movie at a theater too loud? They play at film reference (at least the better ones do - THX certified).

I hope you are kidding. My speakers are perfectly calibrated with Audyssey and an SPL meter. A few times, I accidentally turned on the system after the volume on my receiver was at "0". I thought I was in hell and my speakers were going to burn.

If you love your hearing, please turn the volume down. The following table from the U.S. Department of Labor gives data regarding safe sound level exposure.

A-Weighting, Slow response
Hours per day, Sound Level (dB)
8hrs, 90db
6hrs, 92db
4hrs, 95db
3hrs, 97db
2hrs, 100db
1.5hrs, 102db
1hr, 105db
0.5hrs, 110db
0.25hrs or less, 115db

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I hope you are kidding. My speakers are perfectly calibrated with Audyssey and an SPL meter. A few times, I accidentally turned on the system after the volume on my receiver was at "0". I thought I was in hell and my speakers were going to burn.

If you love your hearing, please turn the volume down. The following table from the U.S. Department of Labor gives data regarding safe sound level exposure.

A-Weighting, Slow response
Hours per day, Sound Level (dB)
8hrs, 90db
6hrs, 92db
4hrs, 95db
3hrs, 97db
2hrs, 100db
1.5hrs, 102db
1hr, 105db
0.5hrs, 110db
0.25hrs or less, 115db

Thanks for the post Big Daddy , I will try to keep mine down below 130db more often !!

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

Thanks for the post Big Daddy , I will try to keep mine down below 130db more often !!

At 130dB, you will be evicted from your condo.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

At 130dB, you will be evicted from your condo.

The big question is will Brent's condo still be standing after 130dB of sound.

Rich

[dewd]

No, I'm not kidding. Remember, when the film is mixed, the mixer is listening at reference level. We don't have an epidemic of deaf film mixers.

105 db for 2 hours... The times a movies hits this level may be only a few minutes (and then it is usually the lower frequencies). The entire film is not this loud.

Also, depending on what your play when you turn your speakers on will make a difference. I'm only talking about films. There are no standards for TV and music.

So how do folks stand to watch a movie at the theater?

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

At 130dB, you will be evicted from your condo.

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

The big question is will Brent's condo still be standing after 130dB of sound.

Rich

Yes & No ~

Yes I will be evicted from the HOA

No the building fell over

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by dewd

No, I'm not kidding. Remember, when the film is mixed, the mixer is listening at reference level. We don't have an epidemic of deaf film mixers.

105 db for 2 hours... The times a movies hits this level may be only a few minutes (and then it is usually the lower frequencies). The entire film is not this loud.

Also, depending on what your play when you turn your speakers on will make a difference. I'm only talking about films. There are no standards for TV and music.

So how do folks stand to watch a movie at the theater?

First of all, a theater is a much bigger place than a typical home theater room.

Second, a few months ago we went to see Hulk at Regal Theater (formerly, Edwards Theater). The theater is known to be very loud. For two hours, myself, my wife, my duaghter, and my son had our ears covered with our hands. Incidentally, my kids are in their 20's and enjoy loud music and movies.

[dewd]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

First of all, a theater is a much bigger place than a typical home theater room.

Second, a few months ago we went to see Hulk at Regal Theater (formerly, Edwards Theater). The theater is known to be very loud. For two hours, myself, my wife, my duaghter, and my son had our ears covered with our hands. Incidentally, my kids are in their 20's and enjoy loud music and movies.

I hear this argument alot. Problem is were talking about the SPL at your seat. So it does not matter how big the room is. It is still the same level.

I have been to theaters that were too loud (painful). I remember watching Batman in the 80's and hating it because of the loudness. But, I also watched Transporter 3 last year at a THX cinema and I was very impressed - it was probably as loud, but it was properly setup. It was ALMOST as good as my theater.

[kareface]

Originally Posted by dewd

I hear this argument alot. Problem is were talking about the SPL at your seat. So it does not matter how big the room is. It is still the same level.

I have been to theaters that were too loud (painful). I remember watching Batman in the 80's and hating it because of the loudness. But, I also watched Transporter 3 last year at a THX cinema and I was very impressed - it was probably as loud, but it was properly setup. It was ALMOST as good as my theater.

I noticed you have the Axiom surrounds, have you had a chance to compare them to other di or bi poles and how do you like them? I was thinking of buying a pair to test because I don't know anyone that has given them a go.

[dewd]

Originally Posted by sentinel41

I noticed you have the Axiom surrounds, have you had a chance to compare them to other di or bi poles and how do you like them? I was thinking of buying a pair to test because I don't know anyone that has given them a go.

Love the Axiom's. I have not tried other 'real' bi/di-poles (I don't count Fluance as a mid/higher end speaker). I have used direct radiating in the past (infinity, fluance). Give them a try - you get 30 days to decide.

FYI - I have demo'd other bi-poles. Can't really comment since it was not in my home.

[Driver_King]

Usually, I play movies at 0dB (which is reference, at least for movies). Sometimes I'll go louder for music. I try not to go to far over 0dB for too long, mostly due to being worried about my receiver clipping. My speakers are 4 ohms and like lots of power (500 RMS in fact). I'm thinking about getting an XPA-2. If I end up getting that, my reference level will change.

[kareface]

I was thinking of ordering a pair actually. I picked up a pair of bi's that can handle full range but for my room I think dipole would be better. I've wanted to test them out along with a few others that people have seemed to like but for now at least all my money is going into finishing up the speakers I'm building.

[coolmilo]

My system is calibrated by the awesome Jeff Meier of Accucal.org (Audio and Video).

All things considered, my favorite "Reference Level" is -3 or -10 if my dog (the great CoolMilo) is in the room.