DENON DBP-1611UD 3-D BD-PLAYER $399, plays SACD's and DVD-Audio discs (3D ready)

[HDTV1080P]

This new Denon DBP-1611UD BLU-RAY player, plays SACD's and DVD-Audio discs and its 3D ready with firmware update. List price on the DBP-1611UD is only $399.

I would like to see a review in the future on the Denon DBP-1611UD and DBP-2011UDCI to see how it compares to the OPPO BDP-83.
http://www.twice.com/article/451902-Denon_Adds_AVR_Blu_ray_Features_More_Headphones.ph p

[Clark Kent]

Denon seems to be aiming at Oppo's market with this unit. I hope this is not a rebadged Oppo. It will be interesting to see how good it turns out.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Denon seems to be aiming at Oppo's market with this unit. I hope this is not a rebadged Oppo. It will be interesting to see how good it turns out.

It cannot be a OPPO clone since the OPPO players are not 3-D ready. So this must be a new Denon design. There are now 4 Denon universal players too choose from. Denon's first generation universal player was $4,500 and then the second generation universal player was $1,999. Now at $399 for a third generation universal player that is a good price for mainstream consumers. $100 cheaper then the OPPO BDP-83. The big question will be can it match or beat the speed and quality of the OPPO at that price range, we will need to wait for a few professional reviews to know the answer to that question. These new $399 and $799 players from Denon will be the first universal players that can handle 3-D BLU-RAY's.

[Travis]

Awesome news!

BD/DVD/DVD-A/SACD/CD can replace my old Universal Pioneer. Wonder if their sister company, Marantz, will put out one along the same price point.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

It cannot be a OPPO clone since the OPPO players are not 3-D ready. So this must be a new Denon design. There are now 4 Denon universal players too choose from. Denon's first generation universal player was $4,500 and then the second generation universal player was $1,999. Now at $399 for a third generation universal player that is a good price for mainstream consumers. $100 cheaper then the OPPO BDP-83. The big question will be can it match or beat the speed and quality of the OPPO at that price range, we will need to wait for a few professional reviews to know the answer to that question. These new $399 and $799 players from Denon will be the first universal players that can handle 3-D BLU-RAY's.

The $799 model is ABT2015 based (ABT2010 replacment) where as the $399 model is not using Anchor Bay, so it's not comparable to the BDP-83.

[dolphinc]

Just bought the Oppo 83 last week. Maybe I should have waited.

[BluRayFreak]

Damn.....I was just about to splurge on the OPPO BDP-83...guess I'll wait until the reviews start pouring in.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by BluRayFreak

Damn.....I was just about to splurge on the OPPO BDP-83...guess I'll wait until the reviews start pouring in.

YOu have plenty of time to think about it. Reference: DBP-2011UDCI (SRP: $799, Aug.) and the DBP-1611UD (SRP: $399, June).

Who know about the Fall 3D FW update, free or $$?

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

The $799 model is ABT2015 based (ABT2010 replacment) where as the $399 model is not using Anchor Bay, so it's not comparable to the BDP-83.

This and the 3D-via-fall-firmware-update are the only, albeit significant for me, flies in the ointment. I like the BDP-83 very much--its video processing (specifically upconversion of DVD) and speed. But I've been annoyed for months about the ticks and pops during (read: between tracks of) SA-CD playback and the upcutting of the beginning of DVD-A tracks. I'm still sussing out whether the latest beta firmware upgrade resolves all of these issues (and it remains to be seen if it might create others).

I like Denon--my big issue is that they're often slow to market for the sake of quality. So this announcement is a refreshing surprise. But the 3D spec has been finalized since last fall. Why rollout players this summer whose arguably most distinctive factor (3D) is not "in the box"?

I guess I'll be keeping my eyes wide for 1611 3D capability reviews using probably the Monsters Vs. Aliens BD as soon as Denon releases the upgrade--which I sure hope is not long after that first software is available. My concern there would be the "Samsung Syndrome": buy the 1611 in June and then wait and wait for the 3D firmware upgrade.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

This and the 3D-via-fall-firmware-update are the only, albeit significant for me, flies in the ointment. I like the BDP-83 very much--its video processing (specifically upconversion of DVD) and speed. But I've been annoyed for months about the ticks and pops during (read: between tracks of) SA-CD playback and the upcutting of the beginning of DVD-A tracks. I'm still sussing out whether the latest beta firmware upgrade resolves all of these issues (and it remains to be seen if it might create others).

The public beta (BDP83-50-0323B) offers a SACD pop fix that has been verified by many including myself. Been very few complaints with this issue.

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

The public beta (BDP83-50-0323B) offers a SACD pop fix that has been verified by many including myself. Been very few complaints with this issue.

Thanks but I obviously don't need a link to the beta firmware since I mentioned that I'm still vetting it in my post. To your point, it's become blatantly, frustratingly clear over the many months that this has been a problem for some listeners that no one owner's experience is entirely dispositive of the nature of the problem, much less whether it's fixed or not. (For instance, I have a greater number of SA-CD and DVD-A titles than many of those who don't think the problem is such a big deal in the first place. I'm the first listener to mention DVD-A upcuts in the anomaly thread at AVS.) In any event, the firmware that purportedly solves the problems a) only contemplates SA-CD (it's not my understanding that the DVD-A issues have been resolved); and b) the firmware is in beta. I understand the public release is usually very similar if not identical to the beta, but I prefer to withhold judgment until it's in final form and, again, we have an opportunity to confirm that it doesn't create other issues.

Back on topic, the larger and more important point that has me tentatively interested in the Denons is that, unlike Oppo, these playback glitches with the high rez formats have not been a perennial issue for Denon across multiple players.

[Henry T]

Originally Posted by BluRayFreak

Damn.....I was just about to splurge on the OPPO BDP-83...guess I'll wait until the reviews start pouring in.

Yes lets hope Denon got it right. Looks like a great unit that would be a smart move cause it is more future proof, then the non 3D OPPO. Not that 3d is on my short list just probably wise to have the capability. Will be nice to hear about something other than the OPPOs for a change.

[Paul.R.S]

I wonder if/hope both/either will have analog 5.1 (7.1?) outputs.

[Clark Kent]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

Back on topic, the larger and more important point that has me tentatively interested in the Denons is that, unlike Oppo, these playback glitches with the high rez formats have not been a perennial issue for Denon across multiple players.

Oppo players of all stripes seem to be in constant state of beta regarding their audio capabilities. The issue often gets overlooked in reviews, but if you follow the Oppo feedback regularly, their players seem to have more issues of this nature than the other manufacturers.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Oppo players of all stripes seem to be in constant state of beta regarding their audio capabilities. The issue often gets overlooked in reviews, but if you follow the Oppo feedback regularly, their players seem to have more issues of this nature than the other manufacturers.

Yet to been seen how Denon fares with lower priced universal players and the ever ongoing battle with media copy protection and BD-Live.

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Oppo players of all stripes seem to be in constant state of beta regarding their audio capabilities. The issue often gets overlooked in reviews, but if you follow the Oppo feedback regularly, their players seem to have more issues of this nature than the other manufacturers.

It's a good point IMO, one I have indeed noted--it's what I'm referring to when I mention the possibility of some functionality being removed (changed) when a firmware upgrade is released that addresses specific disc playback issues. Oppo's is an interesting model, wherein through its EAP the manuf identifies folks who don't mind the perennial shifting sands as far as player functionality is concerned in exchange for strong customer service/support. My issue in that regard is that some of those Oppo owner advocates seem to be technologists/engineers way before, if at all, filmmaking and music fans. My understanding of Denon's clientele is a little different so, again, I'm tentatively very interested in these players.

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Yet to been seen how Denon fares with lower priced universal players and the ever ongoing battle with media copy protection and BD-Live.

Although true on the one hand, on the other my understanding from Oppo's e-mail responses and firmware notes is that the SA-CD playback glitches have/had to do with a (mis)alignment between data frames and markers signifying the beginning and ending of music tracks. In other words, nothing to do with (BD) copy protection, BD+ or BD-Live. I'm not aware of any other manuf's SA-CD/DVD-A-capable players that has had these kinds of glitches with formats that are now 10 years old--one would think that's plenty of time for manufs and chip makers to resolve such issues.

If we add the (IMO gratuitous) caveat that it's not fair to compare HDMI universals to older, non-HDMI universal players like my Pioneer 563A, that still leaves Denon's prior generations of universal BD players that never had SA-CD "rice krispies." Of course, some people will counter with how pricey those decks are/were, especially compared to the Oppo. Which brings me back to my interest in these new Denons and my hope that the 1611 has analog outs to connect to my Denon 3803.

[Henry T]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

Although true on the one hand, on the other my understanding from Oppo's e-mail responses and firmware notes is that the SA-CD playback glitches have/had to do with a (mis)alignment between data frames and markers signifying the beginning and ending of music tracks. In other words, nothing to do with (BD) copy protection, BD+ or BD-Live. I'm not aware of any other manuf's SA-CD/DVD-A-capable players that has had these kinds of glitches with formats that are now 10 years old--one would think that's plenty of time for manufs and chip makers to resolve such issues.

If we add the (IMO gratuitous) caveat that it's not fair to compare HDMI universals to older, non-HDMI universal players like my Pioneer 563A, that still leaves Denon's prior generations of universal BD players that never had SA-CD "rice krispies." Of course, some people will counter with how pricey those decks are/were, especially compared to the Oppo. Which brings me back to my interest in these new Denons and my hope that the 1611 has analog outs to connect to my Denon 3803.

Im thinking moving forward analog is out. time to upgrade.

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by Henry T

Im thinking moving forward analog is out. time to upgrade.

It's not clear to me why you quoted two whole paragraphs of my post when I think your post contemplates just two words of them ("analog outs").

Yes unfortunately "moving forward" the general trend has been away from analog connectivity. But it's always "time to upgrade." The question for me is which components. The biggest impact on my movie experience would be an upgrade to my display device, which I'm scheming might be a 3D-capable pj. That's where I'd like to spend my next AV coin, not on a new receiver.

So I'm hopeful that we'll at least get a continuation of the (problematic) trend that puts analog outputs on the more expensive of two "sister" players. I'm tentatively more interested in the Anchor Bay-endowed player anyway.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

Although true on the one hand, on the other my understanding from Oppo's e-mail responses and firmware notes is that the SA-CD playback glitches have/had to do with a (mis)alignment between data frames and markers signifying the beginning and ending of music tracks. In other words, nothing to do with (BD) copy protection, BD+ or BD-Live. I'm not aware of any other manuf's SA-CD/DVD-A-capable players that has had these kinds of glitches with formats that are now 10 years old--one would think that's plenty of time for manufs and chip makers to resolve such issues.

If we add the (IMO gratuitous) caveat that it's not fair to compare HDMI universals to older, non-HDMI universal players like my Pioneer 563A, that still leaves Denon's prior generations of universal BD players that never had SA-CD "rice krispies." Of course, some people will counter with how pricey those decks are/were, especially compared to the Oppo. Which brings me back to my interest in these new Denons and my hope that the 1611 has analog outs to connect to my Denon 3803.

It was Mediatek (decoder vendor) that had to do some research and come up with the solution against SACD mastering playback issue with data frames that are not aligned with track boundaries. Their decoder is used in a number of players BTW. The Marantz SA-KI Pearl SACD Player for example also had the same issue with SACD ticks between tracks.

The reference to other BD player issues involving media copy protection and BD-Live playback/navigation problems effects current BD players so that was a comment directed to how well Denon manages that aspect with being able to play every BD out there problem free after they release their two new players.

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

It was Mediatek (decoder vendor) that had to do some research and come up with the solution against SACD mastering playback issue with data frames that are not aligned with track boundaries. Their decoder is used in a number of players BTW. The Marantz SA-KI Pearl SACD Player for example also had the same issue with SACD ticks between tracks.

The reference to other BD player issues involving media copy protection and BD-Live playback/navigation problems effects current BD players so that was a comment directed to how well Denon manages that aspect with being able to play every BD out there problem free after they release their two new players.

John:

The positions you're taking arguably exemplify why these discussions often devolve into acrimony: instead of even acknowledging although not necessarily agreeing with a different viewpoint and broader critique, you've repeatedly brought up what I would deem sidebar, smaller issues.

First of all, I'm not familiar with the Marantz player but a quickie Google search reveals a review that says it's an SA-CD player; in other words, no DVD-A playback. That, and the fact that it does not appear to have analog outs, may or may not make it a good apples-to-apples comparative (to the BDP-83) exemplar of another deck with the Mediatek chipset and ticks-between-tracks SA-CD playback.

It certainly doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, but I never heard of the SA-CD playback glitches impacting this player and acknowledge my lack of familiarity on this. (But perhaps the Marantz issues are less well-known because the player was not rolled out in the same problematic way that the Oppo was, creating tiers amongst some segments of the cheerleading section of the customer base, many of whom have condescending, provincial attitudes about their EAP status that often rear their head in frequent posts in the 'opinion repeater'/online community. Oppo's leveraging of this segment of the online community to do some of their "r & d" goes to my earlier point in response to Clark Kent's post about my predisposition to being interested in these (competing) decks.)

In any event, the fact that another deck was impacted by this problem (and I am familiar with Mediatek's role in the troubleshooting process) does not obviate the larger critique--it underscores it: the engineering/r & d departments of not one but two different esteemed CE manufs apparently didn't vet their decks--and whatever OEM chipsets were going in to them--closely enough to preclude these glitches from happening with 10 year-old formats.

Re your second paragraph and "other BD player issues involving media copy protection and BD-Live playback/navigation problems" (bold mine): Those matters are exactly that--"other." If we take the fingerpointing at Mediatek on face then a deck could have a different chipset and not have its BD+ issues impacted. Indeed, we will see "how well Denon manages [the copy protection and BD-Live playback/navigation] aspect." But since it is my understanding that this is largely a problem of the studios repeatedly changing their authoring tools for new titles, I wouldn't adjudicate Denon's success or failure in these regards by looking to whether these two new decks are "able to play every BD out there problem free."

In any event, respectfully it sounds like you'd be/are right at home in the AVS Oppo owner's thread. This thread is supposed to be about the new Denons and I'm hoping we can return it to that discussion explicitly. As opposed to a re-hash of aspects of the SA-CD playback glitch issue, I brought up the Oppo and my issues with it to explain and call out my own bias: I'm even more interested in/hopeful about the Denons than I otherwise would be because, despite my enjoyment of the Oppo, I'm turned off by some aspects of the behavior of both that company and some of its customers.