Film Grain

[JasonR]

Okay, I understand the "artistic importance" of film grain, but when showing someone why they should go Blu it doesn't help. If I say, "Hey come check out Blu-Ray full 1080P you will love it." The last thing they want to see is what they consider imperfections. I must say sometimes it makes me doubt my own setup. Thank god for Cars....

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Okay, I understand the "artistic importance" of film grain, but when showing someone why they should go Blu it doesn't help. If I say, "Hey come check out Blu-Ray full 1080P you will love it." The last thing they want to see is what they consider imperfections. I must say sometimes it makes me doubt my own setup. Thank god for Cars....

And why do films shown on broadcast television not have the grain?

[WickyWoo]

It's there, it's just been DVNR'd all to hell so they can squeeze it into the tiny max bitrate of broadcast HD. Typically they're using less than 14mbps for broadcast (1 or 2 additional multiplexed channels)

[jason_grumpy]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Okay, I understand the "artistic importance" of film grain, but when showing someone why they should go Blu it doesn't help. If I say, "Hey come check out Blu-Ray full 1080P you will love it." The last thing they want to see is what they consider imperfections. I must say sometimes it makes me doubt my own setup. Thank god for Cars....

Wow.. those are fighting words. Some film enthusiasts are going to call for your head on a stake.

I will admit grain is 'shocking' at first to the unprepared, especially movies with really heavy grain. However you can make the rebuttal statement of that's just how better Blu is over DVD/HDTV broadcasts. For the first time at home, we can actually see grain in the film master. This is as close to having your own projector reel at home as you can get. Some education about film grain needs to be shared as to why it's there to begin with and how wonderful detail down to that level is now available.

It shouldn't be "that's an imperfection", but more along the lines of "wow, the detail goes all the way down to the grain."

DVD and broadcast mediums simply do not have enough bandwidth/space to see this type detail down to the film level. Instead digital noise reduction or DNR (smearing/softening the picture) is used to smooth out the image in many cases, and the end result is generally nasty. To make up for the softening, Edge Enhancement (EE) is done, and makes things appear 'Halo'ish but sharper, further deviating from the original film look. This is to fit inside bandwidth and space limitations for DVD and broadcasts. I seem to recall one classic B&W film being so heavily DNR'ed that rain in the background was erased. I challenge you to find that DVD.

Not all movies were intended to be as shiny as Cars, as PIXAR decided not to add artificial grain. When an encode is properly done, film grain actually enhances the picture and makes you feel like you are actually watching FILM and not video. A great example of a great encode with grain is Deja Vu, as I think the grain really added to the film.

Also grain is on the very film you see in a Theater, yet I've never heard of anyone complain it was an imperfection in the film.

It grows on you after a while, and although Car's looked fantastic, to me I think the lack of grain made it look a little too plastic and fake. HD camera's are extremely sharp and do their job well with sports or nature documentary's, but nothing can come close to the true look of film.

[BStecke]

I love me some film grain. I get kinda disappointed when movies don't have it. When you have film grain present, the details in the picture are much clearer.

[Blu As Hell]

Originally Posted by BStecke

I love me some film grain. I get kinda disappointed when movies don't have it. When you have film grain present, the details in the picture are much clearer.

I second that emotion.

[JasonR]

I am just saying this is what a neighbor or anyone new to the media would say. I could explain out of my ass and never get anywhere. If going from DVD to media where there is visual grain, it might confuse you. I get it, my wife doesn't.

[BStecke]

Take a DVD and a Blu-ray of the same film and compare them. While the DVD doesn't have grain, it also doesn't have detail.

[Marcusarilius]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Okay, I understand the "artistic importance" of film grain, but when showing someone why they should go Blu it doesn't help. If I say, "Hey come check out Blu-Ray full 1080P you will love it." The last thing they want to see is what they consider imperfections. I must say sometimes it makes me doubt my own setup. Thank god for Cars....

An "Imperfection" is only what was not presented when filmed. By that I mean, white and black pops on the print, A hair sitting in the lense while the projector runs for veiwing or recording a movie. After 8 months of BD viewing it is now 100% apparent to me that what you see as far as grain goes is exactly... exactly as filmed and presented in the theater. HD brings any existing grain to the forfront as does the great color and picture detail. Grain is not an imperfection. If an actor has a zit you hadn't noticed before, this is not an HD issue.

[JasonR]

Try explaining that to my wife. Maybe it was me bringing her from broadcast HD to Blu-Ray. Some people just don't get it is supposed to be there. It is tough to explain, that is what I am getting at. I know it is what is meant for the film.

[Marcusarilius]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Try explaining that to my wife. Maybe it was me bringing her from broadcast HD to Blu-Ray. Some people just don't get it is supposed to be there. It is tough to explain, that is what I am getting at. I know it is what is meant for the film.

She will also see over time (multiple movie veiwing) how much grain will vary from one movie to another.

[Blu As Hell]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Try explaining that to my wife. Maybe it was me bringing her from broadcast HD to Blu-Ray. Some people just don't get it is supposed to be there. It is tough to explain, that is what I am getting at. I know it is what is meant for the film.

With some people they are going to need multiple viewings on Blu-ray so they can become accustomed to film grain. Some people get it right away with a first viewing, some people it takes sometime.

[turboedguy]

Originally Posted by Marcusarilius

She will also see over time (multiple movie veiwing) how much grain will vary from one movie to another.

varies from scene to scene as well.

Anyone ever notice on Superman returns when hes saving the plane over the baseball field, the scene will switch between the clean crisp outside Superman view to grainy inside airplane Lois Lane view?

[jason_grumpy]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Try explaining that to my wife. Maybe it was me bringing her from broadcast HD to Blu-Ray. Some people just don't get it is supposed to be there. It is tough to explain, that is what I am getting at. I know it is what is meant for the film.

First... you need to explain to her that not all broadcasts are equal. Sports and Documentaries generally stick to HD Camera's, this is why they look crystal clear as they were never on film. Film has grain, and is even more note worthy in theaters.

Second.. this is the best website I could find quickly with visual evidence as to what detail we say goes missing after a swipe of DNR. http://www.awn.com/mag/issue3.12/3.1...amididvnr.php3. I am sure that you will find the results quite surprising. Sure the grain is gone, but so is most of the detail!

[JasonR]

I am just making a point, it is hard to show a new viewer grain? They see it as imperfection, right? I just know I have more ohhs and ahhs with Cars. I am trying to turn people BLU, they hear HD-DVD and hear something familiar. The words DVD!!! I am trying to sway many, I am just saying sometimes this is an obstacle.

[kknight]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Okay, I understand the "artistic importance" of film grain, but when showing someone why they should go Blu it doesn't help. If I say, "Hey come check out Blu-Ray full 1080P you will love it." The last thing they want to see is what they consider imperfections. I must say sometimes it makes me doubt my own setup. Thank god for Cars....

I know what you mean, some movies are bad and some are just not noticable. Worst I've seen on Blu-ray is Crash and worst ever is Miami Vice on HD-DVD. Especially in the dark scene, there's white dots everywhere and it really is embarrassing to show that to anyone. Within the last few months movies look a lot better compare to before. Now a days, they just seem to keep getting better and better for Blu-ray. I can't say the same for HD-DVD though.

[Blu As Hell]

Originally Posted by JasonR

I am just making a point, it is hard to show a new viewer grain? They see it as imperfection, right? I just know I have more ohhs and ahhs with Cars. I am trying to turn people BLU, they hear HD-DVD and hear something familiar. The words DVD!!! I am trying to sway many, I am just saying sometimes this is an obstacle.

I've found when I'm showing new, possible convertees, movie wise show them any POTC, Casino Royale, or Crank. Crank is filmed with HD cameras so there is little to no grain (and be careful who you show this movie to, it's kinda harsh sometimes) and the POTC's and Casnio Royale have a little grain but the detail on them are exceptional.

[JasonR]

See, I got my "That looks like shit" from my wife on POTC 3. When I KNOW IT LOOKS GREAT!!

[turboedguy]

Originally Posted by JasonR

See, I got my "That looks like shit" from my wife on POTC 3. When I KNOW IT LOOKS GREAT!!

go buy the DVD and compare it with her, noting the fine detail, or lack of in the DVDs case.

[clyon]

Originally Posted by JasonR

See, I got my "That looks like shit" from my wife on POTC 3. When I KNOW IT LOOKS GREAT!!

Tell her to get her eyes checked, I have not seen POTC3 yet (thanks to samsung) but I am sure that the PQ is as good as the other 2 & they are top quilty PQ.