Film Grain that is beyond bad? - Blu-ray Forum

MCWHAMMER · 10-12-2008, 01:07 AM

Something has bugged me ever since I started watching Blu-ray movies. I have watched many Blu-ray movies and TV shows exclusively on my PlayStation 3, so I have no experience with other players. I love the PlayStation, I wouldn't give it up for anything. My problem arises from the "film grain" I see in so many releases - new and old. The only reason I call it film grain is because that is the best explanation I have heard (On this forum) that describes what I am seeing. A word of warning: though I use a lot of technology and embrace it, I do not fully understand the workings behind it all. So please dumb it down for me the best you can.

So, if you can please try to remain civil in this thread, all I want to know is how a brand new Blu-ray's picture quality can within minutes go from the beauty of this image (You may have to click the image to enlarge to full screen size):

HERE

To the grainy quality I see HERE AND HERE.

I can overlook a lot... honestly I can, but I am seeing this entirely too often with brand new releases, and I can't find a justification for it. My picture quality is almost always beautiful (1080p Samsung), but I find that during 50% or more of dark scenes, or scenes with clouds or smoke, the picture is just stupid grainy.

Can anyone provide some explanation as to why this is happening, when we have an HD disc format? Can it be explained by compression, original film quality, or something altogether different? I have to know, and you guys likely have tons more experience and understanding than I do about how and why this is happening.

EDIT: Stupid me, Blu-ray dot com wrote a review for this movie. Will have to read up fully on what they think of the grain in the movie. Glad to know I wasn't the only one seeing it. Still, I want to hear everyone else's thoughts.

*All images taken from 1080p television from the October 2008 release of "Rest Stop 2: Don't Look Back". It may be low-budget, but I've seen the same grain in higher budget releases. The last image is slightly blurry, but the point still comes across.

Digital-Man · 10-12-2008, 01:33 AM

What you are seeing is video noise, not film grain. It is artifacts resulting in the original film being under-exposed when the movie was shot, resulting in a dark picture. The video noise happens when the picture is lightened for correct exposure during the transfer to a different medium whether it is digital (DVD or Blu-ray) or video tape (VHS).

BoschRock · 10-12-2008, 02:28 AM

I have never experienced grain to that extent--that would ruin the movie for me.

MCWHAMMER · 10-12-2008, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital-Man

What you are seeing is video noise, not film grain. It is artifacts resulting in the original film being under-exposed when the movie was shot, resulting in a dark picture. The video noise happens when the picture is lightened for correct exposure during the transfer to a different medium whether it is digital (DVD or Blu-ray) or video tape (VHS).

Good to know. Noise sounds more accurate than grain, though it obviously produces a grainy picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoschRock

I have never experienced grain to that extent--that would ruin the movie for me.

I wasn't alone in experiencing it with this movie, as blu-ray.com says they noticed it frequently in their review here. This isn't the only movie I've seen this same thing with. I noticed it recently with The Scorpion King 2. My God, when they are down in the dungeons running around, it is appalling how bad the quality is. The screen is supposed to be black, and instead it looks like someone went in and added a million tiny white dots to every underground scene. Blu-ray dot com seems to have noticed this in their review too, but they definitely don't call it out to much extent. It's movie ruining, definitely.

Makes you instantly regret buying a $30 disc.

atomik kinder · 10-12-2008, 12:54 PM

I have seen this quite a bit on HD broadcast TV too, Prisonbreak and Lost. I have only noticed it on a few BDs.

Blu Jacket · 10-12-2008, 01:11 PM

That is sort of what happens in Transformers during the scene where Sam's parents barge into his bedroom while he looks for the glasses. Very noticeable and highly distracting, fortunately the rest of the movie looks beautiful.

supersix4 · 10-12-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoschRock

I have never experienced grain to that extent--that would ruin the movie for me.

yeah same. What movies are you watching lol?

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomik kinder

I have seen this quite a bit on HD broadcast TV too, Prisonbreak and Lost.

yeah I see that way more on hd shows that are on tv but I havent seen anything like that on blu-ray

MCWHAMMER · 10-12-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by supersix4

yeah same. What movies are you watching lol?

lol, you supposedly own 201 Blu-ray releases lol, and you've never seen this type of noise before lol?

It's impossible not to see, it's all to frequent with Blu-ray movies set in the dark.

aygie · 10-12-2008, 02:46 PM

The shots you took look atrocious, that amount of noise is not right but it looks like its the film itself:

From the BD.com review

"Noise is abundant on this release in the opening minutes of the film, but it clears up afterwards, but only occasionally"

This shot is one of the better shots but it still has a lot of noise (not grain)

Leopold BUTTERS · 10-12-2008, 04:16 PM

while the movie is running try playing with the Sharpness settings and Contrast settings on your projector until it looks better.

ryoohki · 10-12-2008, 04:36 PM

BTW Digital Camera also suffer from the same problem. If you boost the sensitivity of the sensor, you end up with Video Noise o plenty. It appear in a lot of Digital movies during dark scenes...

Kryptron · 10-12-2008, 05:33 PM

For it to look that bad, you might have your tvs sharpness set way too high.

Turn sharpness down then post back and tell us what you see.

foots · 10-12-2008, 05:42 PM

My parents had this problem. You need to make sure all noise reduction features are turned off on your TV. It is definitely a setup issue you have there imho. If it isn't noise reduction (your TV may call it something else) then play around with other settings. I'm 90% sure when I turned off the noise reduction features on my parent's set that it went away.

mattym · 10-12-2008, 05:43 PM

agreed with the above, its a setup issue, not a BD issue

gaeljet · 10-12-2008, 06:42 PM

i have the same problem, though i perfectly understand the grain ned and story i think sometimes you just see it too much, whereas some other times you almost don t see them and still have ood definition(mr and mrs smith french release tat shoul be the same than the us one, animated movies, trainning day are movies that have not much grain and are still beautifull or even better)but i don t have a full hd tv and a basic blu ray player(sony bdp s 350) i guess that with a better equipment ,esecially a full hd tv i d have some better results, plus i finally "calibrated" my tv, i used to try it with saturations etc, but it s not what matters most, what really matters are i don t know how to call them, automatic boost, either contrast, or saturation , on or off, it just change it all, for example with all those things off on happy feet i can arely see edges in sky or water whereas before i used to see them way too much.. the sharpness setting is important s well freeze the movie on a picture with no motion, then turn the sharpness to the maximum, watch caefully the picture, then as you turn the sharpness to tle lowest level close your eyes and finally open them all and see the huge difference!

Blu-junkie · 10-12-2008, 07:11 PM

I can answer this one easily. The digital engine is the problem, but without it the picture sucks. I have a 67 inch Samsung DLP and on some older movies it really shows (like with Under Siege and Close Encounters). But, the majority of the BDs look great. Try watching it with the engine off.

Bobby Henderson · 10-12-2008, 07:54 PM

If visible grain is present in the original camera elements then I'm all in favor of seeing it in the finished Blu-ray disc. If the movie was originally photographed and released looking grainy, then it needs to look the same way on Blu-ray. There's lots of movies out there that were deliberately made grainy, even recent ones like Minority Report and 300.

Grain reduction techniques applied to video transfers of movies works in the same regard as noise reduction techniques in graphics programs like Adobe Photoshop. When you apply noise reduction filters to an image native detail in that image is blurred and destroyed.

Lots of people complain about how grainy Close Encounters of the Third Kind looks. If Sony had tried to remove that grain the end result would have been a very waxy, unwatchable movie.

I have motion enhancement and noise reduction features on my TV disabled. I cannot stand how either feature affects image quality. BTW, my TV is a Sony Bravia 52" XBR4 model. That stuff may be fine to use in minimal settings on live video broadcasts. With movies on Blu-ray, those features kill a lot of image detail, make the movie look waxy and also make it look like video put into fast forward mode. I cringe every time I see that junk put into use in TV demo displays in electronics stores.

10-12-2008, 01:07 AM	#1
MCWHAMMER Active Member Member since:Jul 2007 Location:Denver, N.C.	Film Grain that is beyond bad? Something has bugged me ever since I started watching Blu-ray movies. I have watched many Blu-ray movies and TV shows exclusively on my PlayStation 3, so I have no experience with other players. I love the PlayStation, I wouldn't give it up for anything. My problem arises from the "film grain" I see in so many releases - new and old. The only reason I call it film grain is because that is the best explanation I have heard (On this forum) that describes what I am seeing. A word of warning: though I use a lot of technology and embrace it, I do not fully understand the workings behind it all. So please dumb it down for me the best you can. So, if you can please try to remain civil in this thread, all I want to know is how a brand new Blu-ray's picture quality can within minutes go from the beauty of this image (You may have to click the image to enlarge to full screen size): HERE To the grainy quality I see HERE AND HERE. I can overlook a lot... honestly I can, but I am seeing this entirely too often with brand new releases, and I can't find a justification for it. My picture quality is almost always beautiful (1080p Samsung), but I find that during 50% or more of dark scenes, or scenes with clouds or smoke, the picture is just stupid grainy. Can anyone provide some explanation as to why this is happening, when we have an HD disc format? Can it be explained by compression, original film quality, or something altogether different? I have to know, and you guys likely have tons more experience and understanding than I do about how and why this is happening. EDIT: Stupid me, Blu-ray dot com wrote a review for this movie. Will have to read up fully on what they think of the grain in the movie. Glad to know I wasn't the only one seeing it. Still, I want to hear everyone else's thoughts. All images taken from 1080p television from the October 2008 release of "Rest Stop 2: Don't Look Back". It may be low-budget, but I've seen the same grain in higher budget releases. The last image is slightly blurry, but the point still comes across. Last edited by MCWHAMMER; 10-12-2008 at 01:12 AM.*

10-12-2008, 05:42 PM	#13
foots Expert Member Member since:May 2007 Blu-ray collection:98 Trading Score:17	My parents had this problem. You need to make sure all noise reduction features are turned off on your TV. It is definitely a setup issue you have there imho. If it isn't noise reduction (your TV may call it something else) then play around with other settings. I'm 90% sure when I turned off the noise reduction features on my parent's set that it went away. Last edited by foots; 10-12-2008 at 05:45 PM.

10-12-2008, 06:42 PM	#15
gaeljet Expert Member Member since:Oct 2007 Location:north of france :cool: Blu-ray reviews:6 Trading Score:28	i have the same problem, though i perfectly understand the grain ned and story i think sometimes you just see it too much, whereas some other times you almost don t see them and still have ood definition(mr and mrs smith french release tat shoul be the same than the us one, animated movies, trainning day are movies that have not much grain and are still beautifull or even better)but i don t have a full hd tv and a basic blu ray player(sony bdp s 350) i guess that with a better equipment ,esecially a full hd tv i d have some better results, plus i finally "calibrated" my tv, i used to try it with saturations etc, but it s not what matters most, what really matters are i don t know how to call them, automatic boost, either contrast, or saturation , on or off, it just change it all, for example with all those things off on happy feet i can arely see edges in sky or water whereas before i used to see them way too much.. the sharpness setting is important s well freeze the movie on a picture with no motion, then turn the sharpness to the maximum, watch caefully the picture, then as you turn the sharpness to tle lowest level close your eyes and finally open them all and see the huge difference! Last edited by gaeljet; 10-12-2008 at 09:01 PM.

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10-12-2008, 01:33 AM	#2
Digital-Man Active Member Member since:Jul 2008 Location:Jacksonville, FL Home Theater Gallery:8 4K collection:47 Blu-ray collection:945 Blu-ray reviews:2	What you are seeing is video noise, not film grain. It is artifacts resulting in the original film being under-exposed when the movie was shot, resulting in a dark picture. The video noise happens when the picture is lightened for correct exposure during the transfer to a different medium whether it is digital (DVD or Blu-ray) or video tape (VHS).

10-12-2008, 02:28 AM	#3
BoschRock Senior Member Member since:Sep 2008 Location:Portland, OR Blu-ray collection:16 Trading Score:3	I have never experienced grain to that extent--that would ruin the movie for me.

10-12-2008, 12:54 PM	#5
atomik kinder Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Jun 2007 Location:Omaha NE 4K collection:- Blu-ray collection:- DVD collection:-	I have seen this quite a bit on HD broadcast TV too, Prisonbreak and Lost. I have only noticed it on a few BDs.

10-12-2008, 01:11 PM	#6
Blu Jacket Expert Member Member since:Feb 2008 Location:Ohio Blu-ray collection:44	That is sort of what happens in Transformers during the scene where Sam's parents barge into his bedroom while he looks for the glasses. Very noticeable and highly distracting, fortunately the rest of the movie looks beautiful.

10-12-2008, 02:46 PM	#9
aygie Blu-ray Ninja Member since:Jul 2007 Location:PSN Network: Aygie Blu-ray collection:99	The shots you took look atrocious, that amount of noise is not right but it looks like its the film itself: From the BD.com review "Noise is abundant on this release in the opening minutes of the film, but it clears up afterwards, but only occasionally" This shot is one of the better shots but it still has a lot of noise (not grain)

10-12-2008, 04:16 PM	#10
Leopold BUTTERS Blu-ray Guru Member since:Jun 2007 Location:AB,Canada Blu-ray collection:93 Blu-ray reviews: 2 Trading Score:1	while the movie is running try playing with the Sharpness settings and Contrast settings on your projector until it looks better.

10-12-2008, 04:36 PM	#11
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	BTW Digital Camera also suffer from the same problem. If you boost the sensitivity of the sensor, you end up with Video Noise o plenty. It appear in a lot of Digital movies during dark scenes...

10-12-2008, 05:33 PM	#12
Kryptron Expert Member Member since:Sep 2007 Location:Tampa Bay, FL Home Theater Gallery:21 4K collection:83 Blu-ray collection:450 Trading Score:4	For it to look that bad, you might have your tvs sharpness set way too high. Turn sharpness down then post back and tell us what you see.

10-12-2008, 05:43 PM	#14
mattym Expert Member Member since:Jun 2007	agreed with the above, its a setup issue, not a BD issue

10-12-2008, 07:11 PM	#16
Blu-junkie Member Member since:Jan 2008 Blu-ray reviews: 8	I can answer this one easily. The digital engine is the problem, but without it the picture sucks. I have a 67 inch Samsung DLP and on some older movies it really shows (like with Under Siege and Close Encounters). But, the majority of the BDs look great. Try watching it with the engine off.

10-12-2008, 07:54 PM	#17
Bobby Henderson Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Oklahoma Blu-ray collection:96 Blu-ray reviews: 12	If visible grain is present in the original camera elements then I'm all in favor of seeing it in the finished Blu-ray disc. If the movie was originally photographed and released looking grainy, then it needs to look the same way on Blu-ray. There's lots of movies out there that were deliberately made grainy, even recent ones like Minority Report and 300. Grain reduction techniques applied to video transfers of movies works in the same regard as noise reduction techniques in graphics programs like Adobe Photoshop. When you apply noise reduction filters to an image native detail in that image is blurred and destroyed. Lots of people complain about how grainy Close Encounters of the Third Kind looks. If Sony had tried to remove that grain the end result would have been a very waxy, unwatchable movie. I have motion enhancement and noise reduction features on my TV disabled. I cannot stand how either feature affects image quality. BTW, my TV is a Sony Bravia 52" XBR4 model. That stuff may be fine to use in minimal settings on live video broadcasts. With movies on Blu-ray, those features kill a lot of image detail, make the movie look waxy and also make it look like video put into fast forward mode. I cringe every time I see that junk put into use in TV demo displays in electronics stores.

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