HDR>SDR Conversion Scales

[StingingVelvet]

Didn't see a thread on this or much discussion. The various UHD players that convert HDR to SDR seem to have luminance scales you can play with. On my Sony it has a 1-5 scale with 1 offering the most bright/dark separation and 5 looking more flat.

There seems to be clipping on the extreme edges when converting no matter what, but this conversion scale increases and decreases the clipping. If you bottom it out though the UHD can look more faded and flat than the BD, so you really have to play with it.

It also seems to depend on the disc. I can have Into Darkness on setting 1 and see basically no clipping, even in the bright clouds scene toward the end. However with Pacific Rim there is clipping in the brights on any setting below 4.

[Geoff D]

No discussion? What do you think I've been carping on about for the last 12 months?

[OI8T12]

What is SDR? I've looked it up, and I haven't found out anything about it. Keep it in layman's terms. Thanks.

Edit: I did find something on Wiki about SDR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_dynamic_range

Anything else to add?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by OI8T12

What is SDR? I've looked it up, and I haven't found out anything about it. Keep it in layman's terms. Thanks.

Standard dynamic range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_dynamic_range

[OI8T12]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Standard dynamic range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_dynamic_range

I think I edited my post the same time you posted. Thanks.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No discussion? What do you think I've been carping on about for the last 12 months?

About the conversion scale itself I mean.

What number do you use?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

About the conversion scale itself I mean.

What number do you use?

The Panasonic uses a scale from -12 to +12 so there's 25 steps, including 0 in the middle. I generally leave it on 0 for 1000 nit discs (Fox, Universal, Paramount) and -4 for 4000 nit discs (Lionsgate, Warners, Sony), but there are exceptions to both.

Here's a quote from another SDR questions thread that sums up how I feel about the situation as it stands at the moment:

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Pacific Rim isn't the best one to test as the HDR highlights run extremely hot, clipping out stuff that's even visible on the BD in some cases (although it still looks terrific on UHD overall).

But also bear in mind that the SDR conversion is what it is: you're going to have to live with "burned" parts of the image on many discs because you simply can't squash the entire range (up to 4000 nits worth, according to current mastering metadata!) into an SDR image without severely reducing the brightness. To bring the brightness up to an acceptable level means clipping the HDR highlights to one degree or another, but you should be able to reproduce an image that still has far better highlight detail than the regular BD; I know my Panasonic player can.

So yeah, not all HDR content is mastered equally which becomes patently obvious when dealing with shrinking the HDR gallon into the SDR pint pot, even if you are using a custom SDR conversion with its own unique gamma curve that preserves far more range than any SDR Blu-ray could ever manage. This is why I've made my peace with the whole shebang, as with greater dynamic range comes greater inconsistency.

The recent Furiouses are an excellent case in point: F6 draws out lots more highlight detail than the Blu-ray but the blacks are raised quite considerably, and not in a good way as they just don't have any more shadow detail to give up. Switch to F7 and the blacks are immediately denser than the Blu-ray, crushing a touch of shadow detail even, and the highlights remind me of Pacific Rim in that there's not much more headroom there, it looks far too bright and clipped on my 0 SDR setting so this is one that gets trimmed down to -4. Thankfully the colour is better on both than their respective Blu-rays and that counts for a lot.

[eddievanhalen]

Sometimes I whished the Samsung UBD K-8500 had several setting for its HDR to SDR conversion. The most it has is Standard, Cinema (the one I use and reders less clipping) and Dinamic which burns even with the softer HDR dics.
I'm sure they could have HDR to SDR settings via firmware update but I'm sure it won't happen.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

Sometimes I whished the Samsung UBD K-8500 had several setting for its HDR to SDR conversion. The most it has is Standard, Cinema (the one I use and reders less clipping) and Dinamic which burns even with the softer HDR dics.
I'm sure they could have HDR to SDR settings via firmware update but I'm sure it won't happen.

?? The K8500 doesn't have any HDR to SDR conversion. What you listed are Picture modes.

The new Samsung M8500 player has HDR to SDR conversion, though.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The Panasonic uses a scale from -12 to +12 so there's 25 steps, including 0 in the middle. I generally leave it on 0 for 1000 nit discs (Fox, Universal, Paramount) and -4 for 4000 nit discs (Lionsgate, Warners, Sony), but there are exceptions to both.

25 settings sounds a lot better than 5, especially when all give on the Sony seem to crush blacks and have a fuzzy color look to them. Whites only clip on the narrow settings though.

So yeah, not all HDR content is mastered equally which becomes patently obvious when dealing with shrinking the HDR gallon into the SDR pint pot, even if you are using a custom SDR conversion with its own unique gamma curve that preserves far more range than any SDR Blu-ray could ever manage. This is why I've made my peace with the whole shebang, as with greater dynamic range comes greater inconsistency.

The recent Furiouses are an excellent case in point: F6 draws out lots more highlight detail than the Blu-ray but the blacks are raised quite considerably, and not in a good way as they just don't have any more shadow detail to give up. Switch to F7 and the blacks are immediately denser than the Blu-ray, crushing a touch of shadow detail even, and the highlights remind me of Pacific Rim in that there's not much more headroom there, it looks far too bright and clipped on my 0 SDR setting so this is one that gets trimmed down to -4. Thankfully the colour is better on both than their respective Blu-rays and that counts for a lot.

I hate the idea of adjusting it for different movies. I also hate the idea of not finding one true, accurate setting. I just don't think this stuff is for me. I played with the SDR conversion a lot today and just never got it looking right, even though it looks better. Bah!

Selling the Sony and getting your Panny is on my list of options, as is getting divorced and charging a Samsung KS8000 TV.

[Carlos2992]

Hello, which player handles better the HDR to SDR convertion currently? I'd like to get the Oppo 203 but I need to connect the player through the HD Fury integral and that one does not output BT.2020 with the HD Fury.

Thanks!

[Mcfly88]

Originally Posted by Carlos2992

Hello, which player handles better the HDR to SDR convertion currently? I'd like to get the Oppo 203 but I need to connect the player through the HD Fury integral and that one does not output BT.2020 with the HD Fury.

Thanks!

I mean I can only speak for myself, but I've had no issues whatsoever with the Xbox One S. HDR content looks great on my SDR TV. I haven't seen any major issues with the picture being too dark. Also, colors look amazing and not washed out in the slightest.

[Carlos2992]

Is there a big image diference between SDR 709 IIRC and SDR BT.2020 ?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

?? The K8500 doesn't have any HDR to SDR conversion. What you listed are Picture modes.

The new Samsung M8500 player has HDR to SDR conversion, though.

Of course it has SDR conversion, it's just not something that can be accessed manually. How on Earth do people think this player worked on SDR TVs to begin with?

[edit] added quote

Originally Posted by Geoff D

So how are people with SDR 4K TVs using this player at all? Like I said, there's no MANUALLY selectable SDR conversion/HDR Off kinda setting but if it's connected to a non-HDR display then the EDID will activate the SDR conversion, as referenced in several reviews of the player...

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news...-blu-ray/23733

https://www.avforums.com/review/sams...r-review.12516

http://www.trustedreviews.com/samsun...-player-review

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Of course it has SDR conversion, it's just not something that can be accessed manually. How on Earth do people think this player worked on SDR TVs to begin with?

[edit] added quote

Fair enough, but it seems like this thread has more to do with the ability to manually convert HDR to SDR and to discuss which conversion settings are optimal for each player that has that ability.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Carlos2992

Hello, which player handles better the HDR to SDR convertion currently? I'd like to get the Oppo 203 but I need to connect the player through the HD Fury integral and that one does not output BT.2020 with the HD Fury.

I can only speak to the Sony but it supposedly only outputs 709 in SDR mode. I've played with a lot of settings and SDR mode always pretty much looks the same, so I think that's accurate.

It looks pretty nice at first put once you test it against HDR and BD it has obvious black crush and colors look kind of fuzzy, or hazy. Hard to describe. They don't look over-saturated usually (though they do in some scenes) but they have this glowy look to them.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

25 settings sounds a lot better than 5, especially when all give on the Sony seem to crush blacks and have a fuzzy color look to them. Whites only clip on the narrow settings though.

I hate the idea of adjusting it for different movies. I also hate the idea of not finding one true, accurate setting. I just don't think this stuff is for me. I played with the SDR conversion a lot today and just never got it looking right, even though it looks better. Bah!

Selling the Sony and getting your Panny is on my list of options, as is getting divorced and charging a Samsung KS8000 TV.

I hated that idea too but y'know what? I've been adjusting my settings more and more often lately when watching regular BD, never mind UHD, and it's not difficult to eyeball when a UHD looks much too blown out so I just switch to my -4 mode on the Panny. Thankfully it's a very easy process because the player stores two lots of adjustable settings along with fixed 'Standard' settings so it's literally just a couple of button pushes on the remote to change back and forth.

I my Panny.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I hate the idea of adjusting it for different movies. I also hate the idea of not finding one true, accurate setting. I just don't think this stuff is for me. I played with the SDR conversion a lot today and just never got it looking right, even though it looks better. Bah!

I'm on the fence about all this stuff, I recently took back my 1080p Sony, so I've been looking at a KS8000 (KS7000 in the UK) (worried about the peak luminance dropping off), a Philips PUS7101 (always wanted an Ambilight) or an LG 850V (3D and Dolby Vision). I don't plan on buying a player anytime soon, but listening to all the pitfalls is putting me off.

I know I'll be thrilled with BD playback, but if I pick up one of the models it won't be replaced anytime soon. I'd like to pick something up that goes with a 2nd or 3rd generation player when they drop in price, but each has their pluses and minuses.

[Geoff D]

Chew on this re: SDR conversion (skip to about 6:45):

OPPO UDP-203 vs Panasonic DMP-UB900: Picture Quality Comparison - YouTube

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by chip75

I'm on the fence about all this stuff, I recently took back my 1080p Sony, so I've been looking at a KS8000 (KS7000 in the UK) (worried about the peak luminance dropping off), a Philips PUS7101 (always wanted an Ambilight) or an LG 850V (3D and Dolby Vision)

This doesn't really have anything to do with HDR to SDR conversion, but since you posted it, I feel like I should reply. If your choice comes down to those TVs, the KS8000 is the clear choice. Those other TVs are simply not on the same level. You'll find that every review supports this claim.

The KS8000 is significantly brighter, has a wider color gamut, better contrast, better uniformity, and it supports more HDR formats (HDR10, YouTube HDR, and HLG.)

Don't be fooled by the Dolby Vision support on the LG UH8500. It doesn't have anywhere near the ability to take advantage of DV's best features (no TV really does at the moment) and it's just there to help deal with some of the TV's severe HDR limitations.

If you go with the KS8000, you won't need to convert HDR to SDR. I have this TV and its HDR is just stunning.