Separates vs A/V receiver

[Bigalsworth]

I have a few questions:
1)What makes up a complete "separate" package?
2)Pros/cons for running separates?
3)Are they better than an A/V receiver?
4)Are these DVDO video processors all they are cracked up to be?

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks in advance

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Bigalsworth

I have a few questions:
1)What makes up a complete "separate" package?
2)Pros/cons for running separates?
3)Are they better than an A/V receiver?
4)Are these DVDO video processors all they are cracked up to be?

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks in advance

A complete separates package consists of a surround sound processor preamp (commonly referred to as a pre/pro), and a power amp for each channel. The power amps can be several amps in one chassis (most common), several monoblocs (uncommon due to cost and space considerations!), or some combination thereof. For 7.1 sound some people use a 7 channel amp, and others might use a 5 chanel amp and a stereo one.

The cons of separates are essentially those of money and space. They tend to take up more space and cost more than their single-chassis counterparts. The pros include potentially better sound quality, greater flexibility, and the ability to tune the sound to your environment/tastes. Separate amps are usually available in higher ratings than receivers.

Are they better than an AVR? Almost definately yes, unless you compare the cheapest separates with the most expensive receivers. But yeah, separates have a higher attainable quality that receivers, which tend to cater to the "more is better" crowd rather than those with more discerning tastes. :-)

I have no idea what a DVDO processor is; sorry.

Anyways, hope this helps...

[Woody]

Originally Posted by richteer

A complete separates package consists of a surround sound processor preamp (commonly referred to as a pre/pro), and a power amp for each channel. The power amps can be several amps in one chassis (most common), several monoblocs (uncommon due to cost and space considerations!), or some combination thereof. For 7.1 sound some people use a 7 channel amp, and others might use a 5 chanel amp and a stereo one.

The cons of separates are essentially those of money and space. They tend to take up more space and cost more than their single-chassis counterparts. The pros include potentially better sound quality, greater flexibility, and the ability to tune the sound to your environment/tastes. Separate amps are usually available in higher ratings than receivers.

Are they better than an AVR? Almost definately yes, unless you compare the cheapest separates with the most expensive receivers. But yeah, separates have a higher attainable quality that receivers, which tend to cater to the "more is better" crowd rather than those with more discerning tastes. :-)

I have no idea what a DVDO processor is; sorry.

Anyways, hope this helps...

Also you need more cables for seperates.

[Beta Man]

Depending how "budget conscious" you are, you can still get a decent receiver for $2,000 that will rival the quality of separates in the same price range.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Bigalsworth

I have a few questions:
1)What makes up a complete "separate" package?
2)Pros/cons for running separates?
3)Are they better than an A/V receiver?
4)Are these DVDO video processors all they are cracked up to be?

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks in advance

1) Pre-amp/Processor (pre/pro) and Power Amp

2) Separates allow you to easily upgrade one part of your system instead of having to buy a whole new receiver. Additionally, they are usually optimized for their performance, where as receivers try to cram everything into one box. The cons are that separates are bigger and cost more money.

3) A really nice separate will be better than a really nice AVR, usually. By really nice I mean multiple thousands of dollars. Pioneer came out with an AVR which is basically a pre/pro and amp that share the same box. I can't imagine that being any worse than a similar prices separate.

4) DVDO is great, but only is you need to upscale. With Blu-ray, you'd want to feed the 1080p24 signal directly to your 1080p24 display without any processing - so no video processor like DVDO is needed. If you want to watch DVDs or deinterlace 1080i cable/sat/ota HD signals, then it would be an improvement.

If you can afford it, go with separates. Get yourself a great amp set-up, and then you won't have to worry about ever replacing it (or atleast until Hollywood starts using something more than 7.1). Then get a great pre/pro, knowing that if some big advancement in processing is discovered, you can replace it without having to worry about touching the amp.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Depending how "budget conscious" you are, you can still get a decent receiver for $2,000 that will rival the quality of separates in the same price range.

True, but most folks moving to separates are aiming at a higher price point and significantly improved audio quality. The cheapest separates which handle all of the new audio codecs I can imagine would be an Integra DTC 9.8 (~$1,800) + some suitable multi-channel amp. My preference would be a 5ch Sunfire Cinema Grand (~$1,000 used on Audiogon) or one of the Sunfire 7ch (~$2,500 used on Audiogon). Using monoblocks in lieu of the multi-channel amp would likely add substantially to this price.

Other folks can probably suggest other, less expensive separates options, especially if the decoding is done in the player e.g. the forthcoming BD50/S550, thus permitting less-expensive pre/pro's.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Woody

Also you need more cables for seperates.

Very true, though except for the (potential) cost, I don't consider that a disadvantage. But yeah, it is something to bare in mind.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by richteer

Very true, though except for the (potential) cost, I don't consider that a disadvantage. But yeah, it is something to bare in mind.

Depends upon the nature of the installation, I suppose. My MBR setup is in a fancy wood & glass low stand, with everything visible. To make my wife happy, I needed to keep it as simple as possible which meant an AVR and HDMI all thru to minimize "unsightly" wires. It also meant my speaker options were severely curtailed. I suspect WAF is a consideration for many of us.

[red_5ive]

Having just upgraded to a separate amp I just wanted to comment on the sound quality difference. Having owned 3 flagship AVRs myself (2 Yamaha and 1 Denon), I'm no stranger to the quality of the "big daddy" AVRs, and I always believed that they rivaled separates. Now that I've spent the last 2 weeks with an Emotiva LPA-1 7 Channel amp, I realize how wrong I am. Although the flagship units are excellent, there's just no compromise with the new amp, espeically considering it only retails for $499 and completely blows away any of the flagship AVRs I've owned as well as any that I've auditioned lately. Everything is so much more open that even vanilla DD/DTS sound like they're uncompressed. In fact, there is very little gap now between uncompressed HD audio vs. the vanilla codecs because the audio is so much more open and cleaner with any source material. I always thought the Transformers DVD sounded very compressed compared to other vanilla DD sources, but with the new amp my jaw dropped - it sounds almost as good if not just as good as any uncompressed audio source now. 2 channel music (no sub and full range on my mains) is also a huge ear opener. There's way more detail and better separation/imaging, and soundstage - and the mids - I can't even describe how much better and cleaner they sound. I would never have expceted a $500 amp to outperform AVRs that cost $3k and above.

If you have any concern about sound quality and aren't just looking for features, I think you owe it to yourself to give separates a try. There are online-based companies who sell audiophile quality gear at mid-end AVR prices that IMO will smoke an expensive AVR. Emotiva is set to release their LMC-2 pre/pro next month, and it will have HDMI 1.3a (4 in / 1 out). I've heard rumors it'll retail between $699-$800. Add their LPA-1 7 channel amp for $499 and you've got a great setup for around $1300 or so (the LPA-1 amp will be replaced soon, though, as a newer model at a higher price is coming out).

edit: I just wanted to add that I'm not trying to bash AVRs. I've spent the last 4 mos. auditioning all kinds of gear in a quest to avoid spending $5k on the Yamaha RX-Z11 (and I'm happy now that I didn't). Out of all the AVRs I listened to, all specs aside I think the best bang for buck AVR I've heard is the Onkyo 805 (I love this unit), and the best sounding AVR overall is the Marantz SR8002.

Anyway, sorry for the rant... I think my 2 cents is done.

[desmond]

- quality amp's like speakers will last a lot longer than any AVR (10 years is not uncommon). AVR's become obsolete due to digital not analog parts. Class A amp is a class A amp.
- resale value is a lot better.
- cables can be expensive but it is one time cost.
- AVR's with pre/pro outs offer a relatively low cost upgrade path.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by RUR

Depends upon the nature of the installation, I suppose. My MBR setup is in a fancy wood & glass low stand, with everything visible. To make my wife happy, I needed to keep it as simple as possible which meant an AVR and HDMI all thru to minimize "unsightly" wires. It also meant my speaker options were severely curtailed. I suspect WAF is a consideration for many of us.

Yah. My wife has vetoed any speaker bigger than she is. How unfair is that?!

[desmond]

Originally Posted by richteer

Yah. My wife has vetoed any speaker bigger than she is. How unfair is that?!

mine has a damn weight rule.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by red_5ive

edit: I just wanted to add that I'm not trying to bash AVRs. I've spent the last 4 mos. auditioning all kinds of gear in a quest to avoid spending $5k on the Yamaha RX-Z11 (and I'm happy now that I didn't). Out of all the AVRs I listened to, all specs aside I think the best bang for buck AVR I've heard is the Onkyo 805 (I love this unit), and the best sounding AVR overall is the Marantz SR8002.

Great tale of testing! Would you mind listing the AVRs you evaluated? I'm in a similar position and wouldn't mind knowing what other sound quality orientated people are considering.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by richteer

Yah. My wife has vetoed any speaker bigger than she is. How unfair is that?!

Yup, no ML Statements for us.

My 2ch room is another matter. It's a fair-sized add-on to a detached garage. My wife never enters, so it's no holds barred.

[petenad]

Originally Posted by desmond

mine has a damn weight rule.

You mean if my wife was pushin 250 then what speakers am I lookin at

[RUR]

Originally Posted by petenad

You mean if my wife was pushin 250 then what speakers am I lookin at

Wilson Audio Alexandrias, maybe.

[red_5ive]

Originally Posted by richteer

Great tale of testing! Would you mind listing the AVRs you evaluated? I'm in a similar position and wouldn't mind knowing what other sound quality orientated people are considering.

Denon 2808ci
Denon 3808ci
Denon 4308ci
Denon 5308ci
Marantz SR7002
Marantz SR8002
Onkyo TX-SR 605
Onkyo TX-SR 705
Onkyo TX-SR 805
Onkyo TX-SR 875
Pioneer 94TXH
Yamaha RX-V1800
Yamaha RX-V3800
Yamaha RX-Z11

I was trying to find the elusive $7k Pioneer flagship that showed up at CEDIA (which I didn't get a chance to listen to), but I can't find any info on it, let alone any place that will acknowledge it's existence. My buddy auditioned one at CEDIA and he was very impressed.

The RX-Z11 in it's 11.2 configuration is pretty amazing. I normally hate DSPs, but this is a remarkable AVR in it's 11.2 setup. But for music it's a little too bright sounding for my tastes which surprised me because the 2 prior Yamaha flagships I've owned did not have the brightness that Yamaha is notorious for. Bottom line though for the price you can EASILY get into separates for cheaper. The same goes for the Denon flagship, although the Denon units in general are all solid and probably the most neutral sounding IMO, but way too pricey compared to other units in their respective categories. Surprisingly, the Onkyo 805/875 have very good imaging in 2 CH music. I don't know what it is about these units considering how cheap you can get them for, but I kept having to check and make sure all the speakers weren't playing when I was auditioning pure 2 CH mode. I swear the front speakers disappeared with these units. So, not surprisingly I ended up with an Onkyo 805 for a while, and I witnessed the same results in my listening room. But As much as I loved that unit, it went back after I found out that the Yamaha units have a key feature that I'm after so I ended up getting an RX-V1800. I'm running it as a pre/pro to my Emotiva amp, and I couldn't be happier. But by itself, I would recommend the 805 over it any day. I think Yammy's have a great HT pre/pro section, and I'll probably keep that setup strictly for HT and plan on getting full Emotiva gear just for music in an another room. Out of the AVRs, my top 3 choices easily are:

- Marantz SR8002
- Onkyo 805/875 (Tie in sound quality, but 875 has a better video processor and additional HDMI in. It's equally amazing that you can get the 875 for <$1200 since it has the Rheon video chip).
- Marantz SR7002

[richteer]

Originally Posted by RUR

Yup, no ML Statements for us.

My 2ch room is another matter. It's a fair-sized add-on to a detached garage. My wife never enters, so it's no holds barred.

Alas, my AV stuff will have to co-habit with my stereo stuff. Given our house layout, it's the only realistic alternative... Fortunately, it's quite a big room (16' x 20-something feet, open at one end) and I usually listen from about 12' away from the speakers. I'll have to change positions when immersong myself in the AV world.

[Bigalsworth]

I think I have pretty much decided to go with separates. I like the fact of being able to upgrade different parts of it at different times instead of everything in one shot. Are there any brands that I should pay pretty close attention to? I've heard lots of talk of the Intregra 9.8, and also emotiva, are there any other good brands?
I'm going to be running paradigm speakers, monitor 9's or up. Thanks for all the info given already.

[RUR]

^^^^^^^
Good for you! What's your budget and do you want lossless decoding done in the player or pre/pro?