Question about HDMI Receivers v1.2 vs. 1.3

[FilmFiend]

I am looking into getting the Denon AVR-988 (HDMI v1.3a).... but as I have been doing research here and on avsforums, I have learned that I do not need DTS-MA & TrueHD Receivers to get the lossless audio from my PS3.

My question is about the video. Since I have a PS3 (HDMI v1.3) and my TV Panny 700U (v1.3) ... will I be losing any video quality if I get an older receiver with HDMI v1.1 or 1.2? or does that not matter when passing the video siginal through?

I want the best picture possible. I know the Denon has 1.3a and supports deep color, etc... but if I am spending money on something I don't need, the please let me know.

[Zaphod]

Here is what you missout on if you go with a v1.1 or v1.2 HDMI receiver (These are the revisions of the HDMI specification)(red text are some of the bigger ones you will miss out in by going with an earlier version HDMI receiver)

1.3a 2006/11/10

Cable and Sink modifications for Type C (Table 4-20, 4.2.6)
Source termination recommendation (after Table 4-15)
Removed undershoot and max rise/fall time limits (4.2.4).
Modified slope of TP1 and TP2 eye diagrams (4.2.4, 4.2.5)
HDMI cable assembly AC-coupling support required (4.2.6)
CEC capacitance limits changed (4.2.10)
Valid range for RGB video quantization added (6.6)
Added audio sample rate exceptions for ARC (7.3, 7.3.1, 7.3.2)
Added Audio Rate Control Overview (7.11)

1.3 2006/06/22

Significant new features:
- Type C “Mini-Connector” (4.1.9.5, 4.1.9.6)
- Cable Categories 1 and 2 (4.2.6)
- Deep Color [4:4:4] (6.5, 8.3.2)
- Reference Cable Equalizer (4.2.3.2, 4.2.5, 4.2.6)
- Higher-speed single-link (4.1.2, 4.2.3,through 4.2.6, 8.3.2)
- xvYCC Enhanced Colorimetry (6.7.2.3)
- Gamut Metadata transmission (5.3.12, 6.7.3, Appendix E))
- DST audio format (5.3.10, 7.6.3)
- High-bitrate compressed audio formats (5.3.11, 7.2.4, 7.3.3, 7.6.2)
- Auto-Lipsync Correction feature (8.3.2, 8.9)
Updated normative reference from CEA-861-B to –D (1.2, throughout).
Updated Overview for new features (3)
Several minor editorial (throughout)

1.2a 2005/12/14

Changes to CEC supplement (see supplement for details)
Eliminated IOFF and made VOFF normative (4.2.4)
Changed CEC resistance to 5 ohms (4.2.10)
Clarified DVI device discrimination (8.3.3)
Several minor editorial (throughout)

1.2 2005/08/22

Removed limitations on Type A connector usage (4.1.2, 6.1)
Required new connector mechanical features, optional in 1.1 (4.1.9)
Required Sink support for future AC-coupled Sources (4.2.5)
Add note regarding maximum ratings of Sink (4.2.5)
Clarified Cable Assembly use of +5V Power (4.2.7)
Removed incorrect testing method for DDC capacitance (4.2.8)
Clarified when separate CEC lines on inputs are allowed (4.2.10)
Add maximum resistance spec for interconnected CEC line (4.2.10)
Remove CEC leakage current limit while in standby (4.2.10)
Relaxed YCBCR output requirement for RGB devices (6.2.3)
Added support for additional video formats (6.2.4, and 7.3.3, 8.2.1)
Corrected sample rate requirement from 1000 ppm to ±1000 ppm (7.2.6)
Clarified use of Speaker Allocation Data Block (7.4)
Added support for One Bit audio (7.9, and throughout)
Clarified exception for 640x480p (VGA) declaration in EDID (8.3.4)
Loosened requirement for duplicated DTD declarations (8.3.4)
High-Definition Multimedia Interface Specification Version 1.3a
HDMI Licensing, LLC Page iv
Added recommendation for setting Supports_AI (9.2)
Clarified the behavior of Repeater to Sink with Supports_AI (9.3.2)
Clarified rule for DVD-Audio ACP Packet transmission (9.3.5)
Additional minor editorial (throughout)

1.1 2004/05/20

Permitted multi-rate native format support on Type A Sinks (4.1.2)
Changed connector mechanical spec (4.1.9)
Changed connector electrical spec (4.1.7)
Removed CEC / +5V Power dependency for Source (4.2.7)
Loosened regulation requirements for +5V Power (4.2.7)
Made HPD voltages consistent with new +5V Power (4.2.9)
Clarified CEC connection requirements (4.2.10)
Restricted CTLx values allowed in non-Preamble periods (5.2.1)
Added new Packet Types (5.3.1)
Clarified InfoFrame Packet requirements (5.3.5)
Added ACP and ISRC Packet definitions and usage (5.3.7, 8.8, 9.3)
Specified recommended handling of non-Subpacket 0 CS blocks (7.1)
Clarified audio sample rate requirements (7.2.6)
Disallowed Layout 1 2-channel (7.6)
Clarified AVI transmission requirements (8.2.1)
Added extension fields and clarified HDMI VSDB (8.3.2)
Clarified DVI/HDMI device discrimination (8.3.3)
Clarified HPD behavior (8.5)
Clarified EDID values of Physical Addresses (8.7)
Made minor editorial changes (throughout)

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by FilmFiend

I am looking into getting the Denon AVR-988 (HDMI v1.3a).... but as I have been doing research here and on avsforums, I have learned that I do not need DTS-MA & TrueHD Receivers to get the lossless audio from my PS3.

My question is about the video. Since I have a PS3 (HDMI v1.3) and my TV Panny 700U (v1.3) ... will I be losing any video quality if I get an older receiver with HDMI v1.1 or 1.2? or does that not matter when passing the video siginal through?

I want the best picture possible. I know the Denon has 1.3a and supports deep color, etc... but if I am spending money on something I don't need, the please let me know.

Though all versions of HDMI 1.1 and after can support 7.1 PCM audio, not all receivers choose to accept audio so make sure it is a supported function of the receiver you buy. Some older receivers may just receiver and pass video for switching and not accept the audio.

[FilmFiend]

thanks guys. I have read the differences between v1.1, 1.2, 1.3... I am mostly wondering about the addition of Deep Color [4:4:4], xvYCC Enhanced Colorimetry, Auto-Lipsync Correction feature to v1.3 ...

does this mean that if I watch a blu-ray from my

PS3 -> 1.3 Receiver -> 1.3 Plasma = picture will be better

vs.

PS3 -> 1.1 or 1.2 Receiver (with support for video pass through & multi pcm) -> 1.3 Plasma = same picture??? worse picture??

Say you took the Yamaha rxv863 (HDMI v1.3) vs the Yamaha rxv861 (HDMI v1.2a)

I since I don't need the HD Audio Codecs on the 863, I can go for the 861 and save some money, but I don't want to sacrifice any video quality... I want to get the best quality picture I can, the same as if I plugged my PS3 right into my Panny....

[FilmFiend]

anyone else?

[jfkeenan]

I'm in a similar situation.
I have the Sony 52" XBR5 on order (will be here Saturday); it has HDMI 1.3 and so does the PS3. My receiver is a Yamaha RX-V1700 with 1.2a.

Audio:
Should not make any difference,,,
I have the PS3 decode all audio and output PCM to receiver, so that's no different between 1.2 or 1.3

Video:
The V1700 can handle 1080p @60hz pass through so video will look the same whether 1.2 or 1.3.

The issue is that PS3 can output 1080p @ 24hz and the TV can accept it but the rcvr cannot pass it.

I don't know if I won't to bother getting a new receiver just for 24p capability. I'm pissed because I bought the RX-V1700 less than 1 year ago and now it's an antique selling for less than 1/2 what I paid for it on ebay. The new V1800 is the same unit but has 1.3 & 4 hdmi ports instead of 2; it also upscales SD to 1080 (current unit only turns 480i to 480p) and it passes 24p.

[welwynnick]

There are lots of sticky threads in all the usual forums saying how HDMI V1.3 adds very little useful functionality.

Firstly, lets be very clear about video formats. DVD and Blu-ray do not, and will not, support deep colour. I think that's a great shame, and I've been holding a candle for that option for a couple of years, but it's not going to happen. The door has closed on the specs.

Deep colour is only likely to be used by new HD camcorders and some video games. If that's you, then it may be worthwhile, but if you only want to use a PS3, HDMI V1.1 is quite sufficient.

BTW, HDMI V1.1 can carry 1080p24 video, but obviously some manufacturers chose not to implement it. Damn technology.

Nick

[rogman]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

There are lots of sticky threads in all the usual forums saying how HDMI V1.3 adds very little useful functionality.

Firstly, lets be very clear about video formats. DVD and Blu-ray do not, and will not, support deep colour. I think that's a great shame, and I've been holding a candle for that option for a couple of years, but it's not going to happen. The door has closed on the specs.

Deep colour is only likely to be used by new HD camcorders and some video games. If that's you, then it may be worthwhile, but if you only want to use a PS3, HDMI V1.1 is quite sufficient.

BTW, HDMI V1.1 can carry 1080p24 video, but obviously some manufacturers chose not to implement it. Damn technology.

Nick

Are you sure that Blu-ray doesn't support deep color? Or is it just that nobody's making the discs yet? I was under the impression that this was one of the reasons the PS3 is HDMI 1.3. Also, since many PS3 games are/will be on Blu-ray, that seems to contradict the fact that Blu-ray doesn't support deep color.

I can't imagine why a format wouldn't support deep color which (correct me if I'm wrong) is just using more data to store color in order to provide a wider color space.

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by rogman

Are you sure that Blu-ray doesn't support deep color? Or is it just that nobody's making the discs yet? I was under the impression that this was one of the reasons the PS3 is HDMI 1.3. Also, since many PS3 games are/will be on Blu-ray, that seems to contradict the fact that Blu-ray doesn't support deep color.

I can't imagine why a format wouldn't support deep color which (correct me if I'm wrong) is just using more data to store color in order to provide a wider color space.

Yes, I'm quite sure. Believe me, I wish it wasn't the case. For a while I thought it might be a deciding factor between the formats, but the fact is that DVD, HD DVD & BD all store video as 8-bit YCbCr 4:2:0, and that's in the standard. If that changed, it would be a new format and we would need new machines. The use of HDMI V1.3 anywhere is quite incidental in this matter, and is largely driven by marketing greed, rather than by technical requirements. This has been discussed many times, and this is as good a thread as any:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=834323

By the way, deep colour and wide/xvYCC/colour/space/gamut are not the same. Deep colour refers to greater depth of modulation, which represents the precision of the encoding, while wide colour refers to the gamut of the colours - how red is the red, etc. These are quite different things.

Nick

[FilmFiend]

Thanks for the info welwynnick, that's what I wanted to know. So a HDMI v1.2 Receivers's passthrough will give me the exact picture quality for my Blu-rays and Games as would a v1.3. I guess the only thing I have to make sure is that the receiver passes 1080p/24... I guess its a marketing thing to make people thing that 1.3 is a great improvement over 1.2.... I was wondering about the lypsync feature on 1.3 ... does it make that much of a difference, or does 1.2 have something similar?

[hagar852]

Originally Posted by FilmFiend

Thanks for the info welwynnick, that's what I wanted to know. So a HDMI v1.2 Receivers's passthrough will give me the exact picture quality for my Blu-rays and Games as would a v1.3. I guess the only thing I have to make sure is that the receiver passes 1080p/24... I guess its a marketing thing to make people thing that 1.3 is a great improvement over 1.2.... I was wondering about the lypsync feature on 1.3 ... does it make that much of a difference, or does 1.2 have something similar?

I haven't seen a need for any lip-sync stuff yet... But I guess my sony receiver and PS3 handshake very well.. I had the dg910 with hdmi 1.2 and it passed 1080/24p fine.. So to beat a dead horse.. yeah all you will need is a receiver with 1.2 and can pass 1080/24p..

[FilmFiend]

that's what i wanted to know.. thanks

[dobyblue]

Testing specifications are greater on HDMI 1.3 as well.
But yes, 1080p24 would be the one to look for and I don't think many pre-1.3 receivers support it.

[welwynnick]

All HDMI V1.2 essentially gives you over V1.1 is DSD support for SACD playback.

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Testing specifications are greater on HDMI 1.3 as well.
But yes, 1080p24 would be the one to look for and I don't think many pre-1.3 receivers support it.

FWIW my Sony DA7100ES with HDMI V1.1 carries 1080p24 quite happily, though I understand it won't do this from an Xbox 360 or some Toshibas.
Nick