HTiB vs. Slow Build for HT newcomers

[Uniquely]

This was touched upon a little bit in an earlier thread, so I thought I would make a new thread to discuss it more.

So often we see people who are very new to HT ask about recomendations about this or that HTiB. They are most often told that they should avoid any HTiB like the plague, and purchase higher quality separates piece by piece. I think that for some people that are new to HT, this can be somewhat intimidating advice and may actually scare them away from making the leap into surround sound. Others of course may see that as wise advice, and choose to go that route.

I just want, for a moment, to play devil's advocate to the idea that it is always bad to start out with an HTiB.

Sure, people who start off with an HTiB may find themselves wanting to upgrade, but as I said in the other thread; that is pretty much true for most of us most of the time... even those of you with top tier systems But a good quality HTiB can provide a great starting point for someone who is just getting into HT audio. They can enjoy the world of surround sound immediately without having to build a system slowly, piece by piece.

When using their HTiB, they will be able to learn about how important speaker placement can be, what the different audio modes do, and perhaps most importantly..... what kind of sound they are looking for in their HT. They can use this time to research their upgrades more fully.... not feeling like they are rushed to complete their system.

A HTiB with a decent receiver is easily upgraded by swapping out the speakers as they can afford to do so. When they are done upgrading the speakers, they can then upgrade the receiver; and then they are left with a second complete surround sound sytem that can be used in another room, or sold to recoup some of the costs of the upgrades.

I'm just saying that instead of coming off so staunchly anti-HTiB.... it may be better to present newcomers with both options. Slow build with higher quality components, or start with an upgradable HTiB and upgrade as they can. There are advantages and disadvantages with both ways.... so just lay them all out and let the new enthuisast decide.

[ArkGuy]

To me, the key word in your post appears toward the end: "upgradeable." A HTIB built around one of those combo thingys - part dvd player and a sort of receiver, or maybe more aptly an amp, isn't really upgradable so when/if someone wants to upgrade they basically have to start from scratch. The very best starter HTIB's would be something like the Onkyo unit built around what is actually their 605/606 receiver. If you later want to add a Blu-ray player/360/PS3 and/or better speakers, you alredy have the receiver. It becomes cheaper in the long run to get into better HT audio.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I just want, for a moment, to play devil's advocate to the idea that it is always bad to start out with an HTiB.

Hello! and nice post.

I just am wondering if that is a typo? should it be 'that it isn't' or missing a word 'not'

[plowmanjoe]

i assume no 'not'

[Ex Accountant]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Hello! and nice post.

I just am wondering if that is a typo? should it be 'that it isn't' or missing a word 'not'

I think he stated it correctly. He is taking the popular notion that you should automatically reject an HTIB and then deconstructing it in an adversarial manner. When my friends ask me about receivers and speakers, the first thing I do is determine if they are an audiophile. Typically, the fact that they are asking me for advice means they are not. I therefore will tell them that an HTIB is the way to go. Generally speaking, it will be less expensive, all-inclusive and it will suit their needs just fine.

Besides, most of the guys I know can't fully enjoy a more powerful system cause their wives won't let 'em! Sad, but true.

[Hammie]

I think ArkGuy responded the best. If the HTiB has an actual receiver which will afford the buyer to upgrade easily without buy a new receiver, then it may be a worth while HTiB. If it has one of the combo devices, or a low end receiver, it may not have enough connections to upgrade to additional devices.

The latter happened to a co-worker of mine. He bought a Sony HTiB. I went over to help him set it up. It only had enough connections for one Component device and one optical and one coax audio connector. In the end, I talked him into exchanging it and he spend about $100 more for a decent receiver/speaker setup. He has not had any issues with upgrade requirements thus far. I guess we'll see what limitations he may run into when he goes blu-ray.

[Midnightsailor]

I have to agree with you OP. There are some quality HTiB's for those beginners looking for nothing more.

[jomari]

as mentioned previously, there are a number of variables to consider before making a jump into HT building, examples would be

- considering what your 'client' needs
- what kind of HTIB you are looking into
- room variables - how big the room is, interactivity of the speakers with the environment - dedicated room? living room? bedroom?
- WAF

By default, when we talk about HTIB, we talk about Home theaters in a box, with a Reciever/Speakers/DVD player (integrated or not - this is why its primarily called a HTIB), there are reasons why they chose that option. most of the times its
- simplicity (plop in living room, its done)
- affordability
- they dont WANT to upgrade
- wireless capabilities (some HTIB's have wireless rear surrounds included)

Things i try to consider tho, before suggesting a HTIB would be
* Consider getting a HTIB with a separated dvd player and a reciever - some of the HTIBs dont have the flexibility of others, if one of the components is broken, you can simply replace it. With others, well, you get what you pay for.

* Connectivity - we want something that can handle most components a standard reciever would have. What happens if you'd like a blu-ray player in the future? or you happen to add on a wii you got this christmas?

* Speaker terminals - the last thing you want on these HTIB's is those 'special connections' they have for terminals. I always liked the idea that onkyo mostly has speaker binding post. What happens if one of your speakers are broken, or you'd like to upgrade your speakers?

* Speaker quality - Nothings worse than a speaker placed in a hollow plastic box and putting cloth on the front then calling em 'satellites'. Kudos to onkyo for producing some very good HTIB's out there, and definitely for putting a well done sub at times.

So, again, they arent the most ideal way of going for HTIB, but you can make intelligent decisions if ever you plan to go this route.

[quest88]

Nice post but I belive this belongs in the HTIB section aswell. Their are HTIB that are upgradeable. Onkyo has been offering a few systems in the recent years that would be perfect for a newbie. I should know because I am one.

[My_Two_Cents]

The reason so many (myself included) are against HTiBs is that most are just plain crap for what you get and spend. I have no problems recommending some of the better HTiBs that at least give you a receiver capable of handling HDMI audio (even if no HD audio decoding) and lots of I/Os. What is extremely frustrating is seeing someone spend $500+ on one of those DVD HTiB systems that have limited connectability and crappy speakers (and don't get me started on any of the Bose crap, either). Why would anyone advocate something like that when you can spend the same amount of money on a separate receiver and speaker system that will provide you with so much more in terms of capabilities and sound quality. It just does not make sense.

The argument about wanting the simplification of an all-in-one package also does not make sense to me. We're talking simple connections here. Whether you have a HTiB or separates (receiver and speakers), you still have the same connections to make. With separates, I would argue that the connections would be even simpler with straight HDMI in/out.

To me, and I would think to most anyone, it comes down to the cost of things. When you can purchase good quality separates for a cost similar to a low-quality HTiB, why in the world would you NOT do that? One can "learn" about HT just as easily with good quality separates or a good quality HTiB than they can with a crappy HTiB that can be upgraded later. I will continue to advocate spending one's money to get the best possible quality for their dollar.

[jomari]

ive always considered, first and foremost to future proof your purchases. in most cases, i always prefer to have people consider them as investments. you want to make sure you'd buy something you would use for at LEAST 5 years or so, without worrying about double dipping so to speak.

this rule i normally have towards speakers, you want speakers for $100 right? well, my suggestion would normally advise you to strongly save up some more money, and reach a desirable amount to get a good set of speakers. no point in buying $100 speakers, then in the long run yearn to get another set for $400. you couldve used that $100 towards your newer set of speakers.

although it relatively is quite simple to connect these components, others find it a pain and quite frankly, hell in a bottle to do. as a hobby, we dont get bothered by it, but others do. in the same light we would be profusely challenged if we were asked to reassemble an engine block.

ive also mentioned cost. others SIMPLY dont have enough money to justify the cost, and dont want to invest further into their home theater. the same way others buy items they'd 'settle' for instead of buying something that would last in the long run.

i dont really believe in HTIB's but for others, this is simply a compromise for them. or they cant afford buying into a home theater.

[moviefan]

[QUOTE=jomari;1426433]ive always considered, first and foremost to future proof your purchases. in most cases, i always prefer to have people consider them as investments. you want to make sure you'd buy something you would use for at LEAST 5 years or so, without worrying about double dipping so to speak.

QUOTE]

I generally agree, but "future proofing" goes just so far.
I got into home theater less than 5 years ago, and started with some pretty good stuff.
Since my first serup, which was pretty good to start with, I have replaced:

Display
Receiver - twice
DVD/Blu-ray player player 3 times
Speakers (some) twice

It never ends.

Having said that, I agree that you should at least ATTEMPT to future-proof your setup as best you can when buying a new component.
The current choices on DVD players are a good example:
DTS-Master Audio and Dolby True HD in the player, receiver or both?
5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs?
Full featured or bare bones?
In my opinion it will usually be less costly. and more satisfying, to co with quality.

[jomari]

agreed.

sad enough 'future proofing' has been overhyped in the HT world, used many times too often. ive used that primarily for speakers more than ever.

with HTIB's the challenge is finding the 'receiver/dvd player' unit, should at least have the capability to have another input in them. or an additional toslink/coax connection for other components. thats why i highly prefer the HTIB's with separate recievers and dvd players.

[Uniquely]

I know when I first got into surround sound many years ago, I would have found the idea of trying to construct a complete system myself quite daunting. Without any background knowledge, I would have been concerned about things like will these speakers match this receiver? If I had been told repeatedly that a HTiB just wasn't good enough, I may have just decided that I wasn't ready to get into surround sound yet. That is my concern. That by trying to offer advice that we may think best, we may actually be discouraging some people from jumping into the great world of surround sound.

[Midnightsailor]

People tend to forget that nothing is future-proof...

[Mr. J]

I've really had my eye on this HTiB
Would this be a nice set up to start off with?

[Tezs]

Onkyo has quite a few reasonably priced HTiB's that are made up of very nice, decent quality speakers and VERY nice if not the best HT receivers available.Personally, if i were new to HT, shopping for a HTiB and also was serious about quality(not just wanting "surround sound" as many newbies want)then i wouldn't opt for anything else except for one of Onkyo's set ups or maybe one of Yamaha's higher end HTiB's.

[Mr. HiDef]

I agree and disagree my first system was a htib and then I got addicted.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by jayvo2009

I've really had my eye on this HTiB
Would this be a nice set up to start off with?

Yes..... the receiver in that HTiB is the Onkyo TX sr606..... which is an EXCELLENT starter receiver. On screen setup makes it very easy to get this unit configured the way you want.

[Mr. J]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

Yes..... the receiver in that HTiB is the Onkyo TX sr606..... which is an EXCELLENT starter receiver. On screen setup makes it very easy to get this unit configured the way you want.

Thanks for the info!