Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[ChadFL]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

I never thought the Jedi were saints. Ultimately I think the downfall of the Jedi was their inability to change to reflect the times they were in and their inability to properly train Anakin Skywalker to deal with his issues and emotions without losing himself and sight of the big picture.

Sounds exactly like the ongoing collapse of organized religion in our own society. Failure to adapt to change resulting in a steady decline and what will surely be an eventual collapse.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Sith

The downfall of the Jedi was because of a Sith. Like it always is.

The odd thing is Palpatine wasn't even the most powerful Sith Lord ever, he was just powerful enough to overthrow the Senate and destroy the Jedi. Anakin probably could've become more powerful than him with time if it weren't for his serious injuries, I almost think Palpatine was glad his apprentice was not powerful enough to overthrow him without risking his own life.

[ChadFL]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

The odd thing is Palpatine wasn't even the most powerful Sith Lord ever, he was just powerful enough to overthrow the Senate and destroy the Jedi. Anakin probably could've become more powerful than him with time if it weren't for his serious injuries, I almost think Palpatine was glad his apprentice was not powerful enough to overthrow him without risking his own life.

I disagree. I think Vader had become powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor and may have done so with time. The early signs were there as Anakin mentioned in Episode III when he called it "my new Empire." Even the Emperor believed one day Vader would seize power from him.

[Jumpman]

Chad,

You're right.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by ChadFL

I disagree. I think Vader had become powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor and may have done so with time. The early signs were there as Anakin mentioned in Episode III when he called it "my new Empire." Even the Emperor believed one day Vader would seize power from him.

I know, with a little more training at reining in his emotions, Anakin would've become more powerful than either Yoda or Palpatine. Yoda was too blind to see it but Palpatine was not. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us. Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the Force.

[goldenrod]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

goldenrod,

The difference is Anakin's fear. Yeah, I'm sure he pieced together that Palpatine was the one who tried to kill Padme in Episode II. But again, it comes back to what Palpatine is offering compared to what Yoda is offering.

For Anakin, it's a no brainer. The scene between Yoda and Anakin in Yoda's chamber is the crucial scene of the film. Anakin's practically begging Yoda to help him so he doesn't go off and lose himself as he did with the sand people.

What does Yoda do? Offer the same Jedi philosophy. That's not going to work for the Chosen One. And it shouldn't work because of how he was raised and the fact that everyone around him were very cavalier about the Chosen One title.

It makes total sense why he did what he did.

I understand that Palpatine's teachings would help him save Padmé, but it didn't help and she died (I agree he didn't had time to learn)

That's where I think that the prequels should have been made differently. We should have seen Anakin slowly falling to the dark side (I know some people will say that it started when his mom died on Tatooine) but seeing him learning and trying his new powers would have been better.

come on, the podrace last almost 20 minutes and Anakin's fall 3 minutes.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Beast

He knew about Anakin and Padme. He was the Senator from Naboo, after all.

And Anakin had been confiding a lot of his secrets to Palpatine over the years.

He just knew why Anakin was deseperate and he plucked the rest from Anakin's head.

Much like how Vader plucked the fact that Luke had a sister and it was Leia from his mind.

When he sits him down at the light show or whatever it was and tells him the story of Syfar Dias and how he could save his loved ones that was all about his dreams. He knew what he was doing. No one can save there loved ones if an assaination attempt with bullets or lightsabers is sucessful. He was talking about the dreams he had implanted of her dying in childbirth. It seems pretty straight forward to me.

[devils_syndicate]

Lucas needs to pull his head out of his ass.

put the Original Theatrical releases on Blu-Ray, and the prequels on blu-ray, and box them together as a set, that way everyone's happy, and gets what they want.


he should have never been allowed to alter those movies, without at least releasing the originals in digitally remastered format.

Lucas really pisses me off sometimes.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by devils_syndicate

Lucas needs to pull his head out of his ass.

put the Original Theatrical releases on Blu-Ray, and the prequels on blu-ray, and box them together as a set, that way everyone's happy, and gets what they want.


he should have never been allowed to alter those movies, without at least releasing the originals in digitally remastered format.

Lucas really pisses me off sometimes.

Never should've been allowed to? What makes anyone else the boss of him as far as these movies go? He owns the films and all the rights pertaining to the films since he was smart enough to take care of all that paperwork a long time ago.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by ChadFL

I disagree. I think Vader had become powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor and may have done so with time. The early signs were there as Anakin mentioned in Episode III when he called it "my new Empire." Even the Emperor believed one day Vader would seize power from him.

Palpatine was certainly aware of the fact it was a possibility.

However after the loss of Padme and Anakin's injuries, his spirit was broken and Palpatine was likely fairly confident that Vader wouldn't be a threat to him. Especially since Palpatine likely wasn't big on sharing Sith Secrets with Vader. Gotta keep him subserviant after all. But as Obi-Wan mentioned in the OT, Palpy would have considered the offspring of Anakin to be a threat. Since that was a threat of reawakening Vader's humanity. Plus the fact that Luke and Leia probably have a fairly high Midi count as well.

[Diesel]

Originally Posted by devils_syndicate

Lucas needs to pull his head out of his ass.

put the Original Theatrical releases on Blu-Ray, and the prequels on blu-ray, and box them together as a set, that way everyone's happy, and gets what they want.


he should have never been allowed to alter those movies, without at least releasing the originals in digitally remastered format.

Lucas really pisses me off sometimes.

That wouldn't make everyone happy. The people who prefer the Special Editions wouldn't be happy then.


As Gandalf pointed out, he can do whatever he wants. These are HIS films, he owns them.


Besides, as well as the DVDs have sold of the special editions, I'd say its a safe bet that the majority of the common public couldn't care less if they watch the originals or the special editions. They just like Star Wars.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by ChadFL

I disagree. I think Vader had become powerful enough to overthrow the Emperor and may have done so with time. The early signs were there as Anakin mentioned in Episode III when he called it "my new Empire." Even the Emperor believed one day Vader would seize power from him.

Because that is the Sith way, the expect there apprentice to try to overthrow them. There proud of that fact, it makes a good Sith apprentice if he lusts for power and it makes you a good teacher if he succeeds.

In fact if your Sith apprentice doesn't at some time try to overthrow you, that makes them an extremely unworthy apprentice.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Sith

Because that is the Sith way, the expect there apprentice to try to overthrow them. There proud of that fact, it makes a good Sith apprentice if he lusts for power and it makes you a good teacher if he succeeds.

In fact if your Sith apprentice doesn't at some time try to overthrow you, that makes them an extremely unworthy apprentice.

The Sith's lust for power and inability to care about anyone but themselves was their downfall and it almost destroyed them, which is why they had the rule of 2 for so long.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Sith

When he sits him down at the light show or whatever it was and tells him the story of Syfar Dias and how he could save his loved ones that was all about his dreams. He knew what he was doing. No one can save there loved ones if an assaination attempt with bullets or lightsabers is sucessful. He was talking about the dreams he had implanted of her dying in childbirth. It seems pretty straight forward to me.

Those attempts on Padme's life were before Anakin and Padme were even together.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Diesel

That wouldn't make everyone happy. The people who prefer the Special Editions wouldn't be happy then.


As Gandalf pointed out, he can do whatever he wants. These are HIS films, he owns them.


Besides, as well as the DVDs have sold of the special editions, I'd say its a safe bet that the majority of the common public couldn't care less if they watch the originals or the special editions. They just like Star Wars.

Bingo on all three counts.

I have the releases with the original versison as bonus material. Never watch those cuts.

For the most part outside of maybe one line of dialogue*, I prefer the SE cuts.

* - I prefer: "You're lucky you don't taste very good" to "You're lucky you got out of there".

[ChadFL]

Originally Posted by devils_syndicate

Lucas needs to pull his head out of his ass.

put the Original Theatrical releases on Blu-Ray, and the prequels on blu-ray, and box them together as a set, that way everyone's happy, and gets what they want.


he should have never been allowed to alter those movies, without at least releasing the originals in digitally remastered format.

Lucas really pisses me off sometimes.

Well I agree that he SHOULD include both the original cuts and extended cuts. It still makes me sick to my stomach seeing Anakin at the end of Return of the Jedi.

But ya, they are Lucas's films and he can do what he wants with them unfortunately.

All I'll say is that I was at the Celebration V convention yesterday and heard quite a few Star Wars fans remark with a bit of disgust that only the re-done cuts are going to come out on Blu.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

The odd thing is Palpatine wasn't even the most powerful Sith Lord ever, he was just powerful enough to overthrow the Senate and destroy the Jedi. Anakin probably could've become more powerful than him with time if it weren't for his serious injuries, I almost think Palpatine was glad his apprentice was not powerful enough to overthrow him without risking his own life.

If you attack a Sith you are risking your life, even if you are Darth Vader. The things about Palpatine we don't know are the same things Vader didn't know. How much Sith knowledge did he have, who trained him, how well was he trained? Also the fact that Vader couldn't use force lightning cause of all his fake body parts is a issue in a Sith fight. Lightning and electronics as I'm sure your aware do not mix well together.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Sith

If you attack a Sith you are risking your life, even if you are Darth Vader. The things about Palpatine we don't know are the same things Vader didn't know. How much Sith knowledge did he have, who trained him, how well was he trained? Also the fact that Vader couldn't use force lightning cause of all his fake body parts is a issue in a Sith fight. Lightning and electronics as I'm sure your aware do not mix well together.

Considering Vader would have lived if not for the cascading force lighting over his body when he chucked the Emperor down the shaft in RoTJ makes that pretty clear. Palpatine gets a feeling that Vader is getting too big for his leather britches and fries him. Star Wars Saga ends early with an unsatisfying conclusion.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Sith

If you attack a Sith you are risking your life, even if you are Darth Vader. The things about Palpatine we don't know are the same things Vader didn't know. How much Sith knowledge did he have, who trained him, how well was he trained? Also the fact that Vader couldn't use force lightning cause of all his fake body parts is a issue in a Sith fight. Lightning and electronics as I'm sure your aware do not mix well together.

Which is why Palpatine killed Anakin so easily when Anakin picked him up and chucked him down a reactor core. Surprised the guy held on as long as he did for a tearful goodbye with his son as the Death Star was going up in smoke.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

The thing is his emotions are what fueled his power, without his deep sense of rage and loss he wouldn't have been the Jedi Knight he was. His greatest strength was also his greatest weakness, kind of poetic I guess.

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Yeah, it is.

Again, technically Yoda was right. He was too old to be trained, but that is what made him who he was. The compassion of this person was a product of his mother's teachings...teachings the Jedi of this era could've used to better themselves.

Both Anakin and the Jedi were flawed in this trilogy and that's the most fascinating part of the Prequels. I know I'm probably not alone in say that my vision of the Jedi during their heyday was not what we received...and I'm glad it isn't.

They were not saints.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

I never thought the Jedi were saints. Ultimately I think the downfall of the Jedi was their inability to change to reflect the times they were in and their inability to properly train Anakin Skywalker to deal with his issues and emotions without losing himself and sight of the big picture.

Originally Posted by Jumpman

goldenrod,

The difference is Anakin's fear. Yeah, I'm sure he pieced together that Palpatine was the one who tried to kill Padme in Episode II. But again, it comes back to what Palpatine is offering compared to what Yoda is offering.

For Anakin, it's a no brainer. The scene between Yoda and Anakin in Yoda's chamber is the crucial scene of the film. Anakin's practically begging Yoda to help him so he doesn't go off and lose himself as he did with the sand people.

What does Yoda do? Offer the same Jedi philosophy. That's not going to work for the Chosen One. And it shouldn't work because of how he was raised and the fact that everyone around him were very cavalier about the Chosen One title.

It makes total sense why he did what he did.

Originally Posted by Beast

He knew about Anakin and Padme. He was the Senator from Naboo, after all.

And Anakin had been confiding a lot of his secrets to Palpatine over the years.

He just knew why Anakin was deseperate and he plucked the rest from Anakin's head.

Much like how Vader plucked the fact that Luke had a sister and it was Leia from his mind.

Originally Posted by ChadFL

Sounds exactly like the ongoing collapse of organized religion in our own society. Failure to adapt to change resulting in a steady decline and what will surely be an eventual collapse.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

I know, with a little more training at reining in his emotions, Anakin would've become more powerful than either Yoda or Palpatine. Yoda was too blind to see it but Palpatine was not. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us. Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the Force.

Originally Posted by Beast

Palpatine was certainly aware of the fact it was a possibility.

However after the loss of Padme and Anakin's injuries, his spirit was broken and Palpatine was likely fairly confident that Vader wouldn't be a threat to him. Especially since Palpatine likely wasn't big on sharing Sith Secrets with Vader. Gotta keep him subserviant after all. But as Obi-Wan mentioned in the OT, Palpy would have considered the offspring of Anakin to be a threat. Since that was a threat of reawakening Vader's humanity. Plus the fact that Luke and Leia probably have a fairly high Midi count as well.

It's SO refreshing to see all these beautiful ideas being discussed!

Great stuff, my friends! That's what a thread like this should/could be like!!