Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

The simply phrase as expressed in the OT that explains everything that we need to know is that "the force runs strong in [Luke's] family". End of story. No futher explanation is or was ever needed.

Besides, your post here seems to imply that the midichlorians are a biological component that specifically gives people the ability to use the force. But if I recall correctly (and please correct me if I am wrong on this) several people (who tend to be pro-PT I might add) have made the arguement that the midichlorians, themselves, are not specifically what gives someone the power to use the force, but rather that the midichlorians are more or less attracted to people who are strong with the force, or something akin to that. I guess kind of like how flies are attracted to stinking, rotting garbage.

Qui-gon explains that midiclorians allow one to hear the "will of the force". I don't recall a connection ever being made to the midiclorians giving you the ability to use the force. (I could be wrong though). I just always assumed it was a flawed scale to measure someones potential in the force. As it is never mentioned in the OT because Obi-wan and Yoda achieved a better understanding of the force. It's kinda like trying to measure ones level of faith in religion .... Just my two cents

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Uxi

The only gaping holes are either your memory or your attention span, you pick. Did you forget that Dooku told Obi-Wan the name? Did you really need a scene of Obi-Wan telling the name to Yoda? C'mon, man.

I have refuted this stuff over and over again with referencing to specific scenes. If they finally see it and it's actually spelled out it's either dumb (because it's spelled out) or it's information they didn't wanna know anyway. You can't win...

As for why the Separatists leave the republic? Really? They spend one complete Episode (Episode 1) on how corrupt, slow and disfunctional the republic was. The Trade Federation were propably the first Seperatists because their agenda was not adressed by the senate... It's pretty obvious.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Uxi

The only gaping holes are either your memory or your attention span, you pick. Did you forget that Dooku told Obi-Wan the name? Did you really need a scene of Obi-Wan telling the name to Yoda? C'mon, man.

Whoa, simmer down now! No need to get nasty about my attention span. I stand corrected, I just didn't recall Dooku saying that. I do have a life outside of Star Wars, ya know... Regardless, there are plenty of plot holes that just ruined my enjoyment of the PT. Not saying they are bad films, they just aren't great films IMO. So, relax okay cupcake?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Uxi

You're confused about what they are and what they meant and making inferences that aren't there. Thus your conclusions are as flawed as your logic in that spurious reasoning.

If you disagree with what I'm saying and want to correct me if I am wrong or state an opposing opinon, fine. You don't have to be so obnoxious about it.

Anakin had more midichlorians than any other Jedi, even Yoda. He clearly wasn't stronger in the Force than Yoda. Obi-Wan outright asks what it means and Qui-Gon admits he doesn't know. This leads to his conjecture that Anakin is the Chosen One. It MUST be disputable for Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council to reject the idea of training him. If it was clear and obvious and indisputable, then they'd be fools to NOT train him.

So, in other words, even the Jedi didn't really know what the hell the amount of midichlorians truly meant. Yup, it's even more pointless of a plot point in this scenario than in the others that I previously mentioned. Thanks for clearing that up!

Qui Gon simply sensing that the "force is unusually strong with him" was more than enough reason to bring Anakin to the Jedi Council. And Yoda sensing fear in Anakin and feeling that training him would lead to danger was more than good enough of a reason to not want to train him. The midichlorians are superfluous.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Yes, the change my life bit is a bit extreme, I will give you that.

I see the point you are making I am just a bit different in the way I see movies. For me movies are entertainement, nothing more and nothing less. Some do it better then others. Some are pure gold fun and entertainement, while others are well, shall we say alright but that's about it and others still are just plain boring for me.

I think people just try way to hard with movies sometimes but that's just me...everyone is free to do as they please if it's making them happy.

I think we agree for the most part. They are just movies in the end and not something to pick/think about too much at. We just are on the opposite of end of the spectrums where some plot devices/holes annoy me, whereas you recongnize they are there but don't allow them to disturb your enjoyment of the film. Cool.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

As for why the Separatists leave the republic? Really? They spend one complete Episode (Episode 1) on how corrupt, slow and disfunctional the republic was. The Trade Federation were propably the first Seperatists because their agenda was not adressed by the senate... It's pretty obvious.

So, they spend all of Episode 1 setting this up, and the "why's" of what is going on is retconned down to something that "probably" happened.

Yeah, we get it it. The republic was corrupt and disfunctional. And we get that Palpatine was playing both sides, that much is obvious. But if we are going to start the saga "from the beginning", shouldn't it actually show how the first seperatists BECOME seperatists?

As it is, some things are clear while others aren't. And what we do know for sure over the course of the 2 hour movie of TPM could instead just be summed up in an opening crawl to set up a movie where more interesting events actually happen.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Jay444

I think we agree for the most part. They are just movies in the end and not something to pick/think about too much at. We just are on the opposite of end of the spectrums where some plot devices/holes annoy me, whereas you recongnize they are there but don't allow them to disturb your enjoyment of the film. Cool.

It may well be the nature of scifi\fantasy that lead the fans to take things a little overboard? I don't know but it seem that things always seem abit more...weird in threads like Star Wars or Star Trek then Criterion (even if in that one you sometime have a different style of weird )

It's like the conversation that took place about a 1000 pages back on the subject of how much was the weight of a lightsaber. No offense to anyone who took part but that really got me going Not that I would go and make fun of anyone over it, I am a giant Star Wars nerd so I have no place to talk but you would not see something as, how to say it, not really important as that in another style of movie thread, only scifi.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

As for why the Separatists leave the republic? Really? They spend one complete Episode (Episode 1) on how corrupt, slow and disfunctional the republic was. The Trade Federation were propably the first Seperatists because their agenda was not adressed by the senate... It's pretty obvious.

What exactly was their agenda? When I saw TPM it seemed like the Trade Federation had the senate pretty much in their control as they appeared to be the ones corrupting it and were able to stop the republic from investigating further right up until the vote of no confidence. I can understand the rebelling from that point forward, but I do not understand why the Trade Federation was blockading Naboo if they had such control over the Senate already? Why rebel against something you already control? But whatever.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

It may well be the nature of scifi\fantasy that lead the fans to take things a little overboard? I don't know but it seem that things always seem abit more...weird in threads like Star Wars or Star Trek then Criterion (even if in that one you sometime have a different style of weird )

It's like the conversation that took place about a 1000 pages back on the subject of how much was the weight of a lightsaber. No offense to anyone who took part but that really got me going .

Do Vader's fingers tickle when he force-chokes someone?

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Do Vader's fingers tickle when he force-chokes someone?

I am more concerned where his other hand is when he is choking out someone. Just saying, it is supposed to be a 'family friendly' film series...lol

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

I see all movies in this fashion none of them have any effect in my life, family and friends do that for me.

So Schindler's List is a mindless popcorn movie? Taxi Driver, more mindless popcorn? There is a difference between being unaffected by movies and considering them popcorn flicks. See if you can figure out what the distinction is.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

So Schindler's List is a mindless popcorn movie? Taxi Driver, more mindless popcorn? There is a difference between being unaffected by movies and considering them popcorn flicks. See if you can figure out what the distinction is.

I guess you miss my other post talking about Saving Private Ryan but in order to continue on the same subject I will make say it again here for Schindler's List and you can then apply it for the other movie you mention

Schindler's List as much as Spielberg wanted to do well is still a entertainment movie, a serious one but not the real thing. Claiming that because you saw the movie you can now understand the suffering of those who live during those times is pushing it. Only those living during the holocaust will ever know what it was like and I wish that no one ever as to live in times like these again. Schindler's List was a movie and as such not accurate (as much as Spielberg try to make it) and took liberties in order to make dramatic effects that have nothing to do with the story. I would say to anyone, sure see the movie but more important, read a book (history book) on the subject after. A movie is a movie and everything about it is about entertainment a history book is about education. There lies the difference

[dcowboy7]

Hey even jerry seinfeld made out during schindlers list according to newman....not during SW....he watched that.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

I guess you miss my other post talking about Saving Private Ryan but in order to continue on the same subject I will make say it again here for Schindler's List and you can then apply it for the other movie you mention

Schindler's List as much as Spielberg wanted to do well is still a entertainment movie, a serious one but not the real thing. Claiming that because you saw the movie you can now understand the suffering of those who live during those times is pushing it. Only those living during the holocaust will ever know what it was like and I wish that no one ever as to live in times like these again. Schindler's List was a movie and as such not accurate (as much as Spielberg try to make it) and took liberties in order to make dramatic effects that have nothing to do with the story. I would say to anyone, sure see the movie but more important, read a book (history book) on the subject after. A movie is a movie and everything about it is about entertainment a history book is about education. There lies the difference

Entertainment and education are mutually exclusive? Alright then. You live in that world. I don't.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Okay, let's lighten the mood a bit.

Slightly off topic, but still SW related...

By any chance did anyone see "How I Met Your Mother" last night? There was some hilarious Ewok related Star Wars references on it (spoilers ahead)...

[Show spoiler]Barney (Neil Patrick Harris's character) was upset because this girl he was dating hated Ewoks, and he figured that she must be lying about her age and was much older since he figured that most anyone who hates Ewoks had to been over a certain age in 1983 when ROTJ came out since anyone younger would have liked them since they would remind them of their teddy bears (I know in reality that some younger people don't like them either, but this was his logic on the show). She says she is 29, but he figures she has to be at least 37 based on this, and it's driving him nuts.

At one point Barney is putting up a slide show for Ted's students, which is meant to be part of an architecture related field trip that has been going horribly wrong, but instead he has all of these slides and facts about Ewoks, including a chart that shows when people were born in relation to whether they like or hate Ewoks. At one point he quickly skips through a bunch of slides to skip ahead, but as they are quickly shown, he's got all of these charts, facts, etc about the anatomy of Ewoks, what they eat, and all kinds of other stuff.

In the end, it turns out that this woman was not lying about her age, but instead had only seen the SW movies for the first time about a year ago.

Separately from this plotline, Marshall (Jason Seigel's character) who works for an environmental law firm is upset because his company is accepting some big cash settlement over a legal case instead of fighting to protect the environment (which is what he would prefer), and at the party that the law firm has to celebrate the big cash settlement, the "Yub Nub" song from the original version of ROTJ was playing. It was hilarious!

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Jay444

Whoa, simmer down now! No need to get nasty about my attention span. I stand corrected, I just didn't recall Dooku saying that. I do have a life outside of Star Wars, ya know... Regardless, there are plenty of plot holes that just ruined my enjoyment of the PT. Not saying they are bad films, they just aren't great films IMO. So, relax okay cupcake?

ha ha, I'm perfectly relaxed and had no intention of being nasty. I didn't call you a name, I just pointed out the only two possibilities and not sure if having a faulty memory would be better than a short attention span or vice versa.

Sure, we all have a life outside of star wars... I've been playing NBA2k12 and Gran Turismo 5 the last few days. You DID make a complaint that was a fault not in the movie but in your own memory. Have you considered what else you might be attributing to the movie but is instead another lapse in memory?

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

If you disagree with what I'm saying and want to correct me if I am wrong or state an opposing opinon, fine. You don't have to be a jag-off about it.

lol what? That was perfectly polite and that's exactly what I did in stating you were wrong. Should I have used more colloquial expressions?

So, in other words, even the Jedi didn't really know what the hell the amount of midichlorians truly meant.

That's not what I said and you're going off in left field again. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't know. Qui-Gon came up with a theory on it. Neither Yoda nor Mace (nor a majority of the Council) were convinced. "Revealed your opinion is..."

After the Battle in which Anakin accidentally saved the day ("In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."), a majority of the Council changed their minds. Every time you hear Mace or someone else talk about Anakin's destiny, they're talking about this.

Qui Gon simply sensing that the "force is unusually strong with him" was more than enough reason to bring Anakin to the Jedi Council.

The midichlorian count is just another way to say the exact same thing. You're making it more than it was intended to and using that in circular logic to justify your dislike. Extremely ironic you're ok with "force is strong in his family" but apparently prefer it left as voodoo.

And Yoda sensing fear in Anakin and feeling that training him would lead to danger was more than good enough of a reason to not want to train him.

That was the stated reason, was it not? "The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?"

The midichlorians are superfluous.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. </princessbride>

[Adrock]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

By any chance did anyone see "How I Met Your Mother" last night? There was some hilarious Ewok related Star Wars references on it (spoilers ahead)...

[Show spoiler]Barney (Neil Patrick Harris's character) was upset because this girl he was dating hated Ewoks, and he figured that she must be lying about her age and was much older since he figured that most anyone who hates Ewoks had to been over a certain age in 1983 when ROTJ came out since anyone younger would have liked them since they would remind them of their teddy bears (I know in reality that some younger people don't like them either, but this was his logic on the show). She says she is 29, but he figures she has to be at least 37 based on this, and it's driving him nuts.

At one point Barney is putting up a slide show for Ted's students, which is meant to be part of an architecture related field trip that has been going horribly wrong, but instead he has all of these slides and facts about Ewoks, including a chart that shows when people were born in relation to whether they like or hate Ewoks. At one point he quickly skips through a bunch of slides to skip ahead, but as they are quickly show, he's got all of these charts, facts, etc about the anatomy of Ewoks, what they eat, and all kinds of other stuff.

In the end, it turns out that this woman was not lying about her age, but instead had only seen the SW movies for the first time about a year ago.

Separately from this plotline, Marshall (Jason Seigel's character) who works for an environmental law firm is upset because his company is accepting some big cash settlement over a legal case instead of fighting to protect the environment (which is what he would prefer), and at the party that the law firm has to celebrate the big cash settlement, the "Yub Nub" song from ROTJ was playing. It was hilarious!

That was hilarious! My fiancee was watching it and I caught that part where Barny was showing all of his charts to Ted's students. It was hysterical!

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Uxi

I don't think that word means what you think it means. </princessbride>

su·per·flu·ous   /sʊˈpɜrfluəs/ Show Spelled[soo-pur-floo-uhs] Show IPA
adjective
1. being more than is sufficient or required; excessive.
2. unnecessary or needless.
3. Obsolete . possessing or spending more than enough or necessary; extravagant.


No, it means exactly what I think it means.

Originally Posted by Uxi

That's not what I said and you're going off in left field again. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon didn't know. Qui-Gon came up with a theory on it. Neither Yoda nor Mace (nor a majority of the Council) were convinced. "Revealed your opinion is..."

So are you suggesting that Obi Wan and Qui Gon weren't "in the know" about the full extent true meaning and signficance of the midichlorians and the council was? I don't buy it. I really don't see how or why this would be information restricted only to those who are on the council.

Jedi spend their whole lives training in and learning about the force. If the midichlorians are in any way shape or form important to the force, and the full extent of their involvement is known, why would this not be taught in full? Or by contrast, if there was some reason to keep the full extent of this info restricted to the council members and/or those of a certain level of privelage, why would they teach any other Jedi even know the midichlorians at all, let alone let them walk around with a special device to measure them in other beings? Would it not make more sense to keep it a full secret from them until when/if they are in a position later on to be let in on it?

And by way of the simple fact that the coucil dismisses the idea of training Anakin upon that first interview (above and beyond the fear that Yoda senses) would indicate that either they didn't know the full extent of the midichlorians or if they do, then they must not be all that important. Plus if they were fully understood and were extremely important, you would think the council would have shown more positive interest in simply meeting the boy given how "off the charts" his midi-count was. Instead they acted like Qui Gon was inconveniencing them and interupting them from their important work of sitting around in a big circle of chairs all day long and twiddling their thumbs... and this was prior to meeting Anakin and sensing any fear in him.

I don't see why Qui Gon would be in the dark about this if it was otherwise well known.

Originally Posted by Uxi

The midichlorian count is just another way to say the exact same thing.

Which makes it superfluous. They already said that the force is unusually strong with him. The midichlorian count is completely redundant of this information. Especially considering that the Jedi aren't even certain of what exactly the significance of it is. It's a means of them getting an "exact measurement" of something that they don't quite know how to interpret. What's the difference if they can just sense the force in someone and can give a ballpark description of the strength of it, or getting a specific measurement of some micro-organism in someone's body that they don't fully know how to interpret and when all is said and done still only gives them a ball park estimate of how strong in the force this person is or could become? And it's breazed by so quickly that it just left a lot of people scratching their heads. There is a reason why this particular plot point is so often criticized.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Uxi

ha ha, I'm perfectly relaxed and had no intention of being nasty. I didn't call you a name, I just pointed out the only two possibilities and not sure if having a faulty memory would be better than a short attention span or vice versa.

Sure, we all have a life outside of star wars... I've been playing NBA2k12 and Gran Turismo 5 the last few days. You DID make a complaint that was a fault not in the movie but in your own memory. Have you considered what else you might be attributing to the movie but is instead another lapse in memory?

yeah okay... Thanks for pointing out I have a 'memory issue' when it comes to subpar cinema. I guess I felt ATOC was so horrible that I tried to put as much of its horrible dialogue behind me.

Anyway, saying you are playing video games isn't really much of a life outside of Star Wars...lol. Might want to use a better example next time.