The Matrix 4K UHD (1999)

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by brian9229

As stated in the release, the Wachowskis left the new transfer to Mr. Pope, who oversaw the hdr grading. He also signed off on it, obviously. He, with the exception of the Wachowskis, knows how this film should look. This release represents how Mr. Pope wants the film to look. This is quite simply, good enough for me.

It's not something that people want to hear in the T2 thread. Or a bunch of other threads with supervised transfers.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by puddy77

For you, I went back to the print. Those photos are not in the original article. I've attached two crappy cell phone pics of the only two images that show the lobby scene, one being the cover. Neither show any green.

That looks like the fan corrected version based on the DVD. Very orange, indicating high levels of tungsten based lights, IMO. This might be adjusted before final release to tone the orange/gold down a bit, but mught very well represent the raw footage. Columns are dark, but color saturation is low. The bottom line is I'd prefer this to that blue/cyan tint the remaster has in the affected scenes. Green or no green is better than blue or cyan, IMO. YMMV.

Originally Posted by brian9229

As stated in the release, the Wachowskis left the new transfer to Mr. Pope, who oversaw the hdr grading. He also signed off on it, obviously. He, with the exception of the Wachowskis, knows how this film should look. This release represents how Mr. Pope wants the film to look. This is quite simply, good enough for me.

Speaking as a tech/engineer who has a supervisor, I can rightly say that doesn't necessarily mean a lot. There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path, to quote Morpheus from the movie. One cannot denote involvement by signing off on something, only responsibility. Pope is responsible for the end result, but we can't surmise with any certainty that he even watched the entire revised film, let alone participated in the remaster in any kind of actual work related way.

Look at T2, as Outofboose rightly pointed out. It was supervised by James Cameron himself. So why does it look like a freaking rotoscope cartoon in some places in order to get rid of all the grain? That might be tolerable for 3D, but for 4K? And then only 4K in the USA? I got the feeling having James's name on the remaster didn't actually mean much in reality, kind of like those "signed" letters from The President made with an endorsed copying device. Hell, my doctor's secretary has a stamp to sign his name. He's not even involved other than telling her OK. It means less than it appears.

I have little doubt the same is true with James Cameron. It's harder to tell with the Wachowski "brothers" since they no longer even exist as such.... Bill Pope? I don't know the man, but perhaps someone can ask him some day in an interview, WTF Bill!?!? Maybe he had cataract surgery and was still recovering?

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

It's not something that people want to hear in the T2 thread. Or a bunch of other threads with supervised transfers.

DNR on an early 90's movie is obvious inaccurate. With colors it's more a guessing game, so trusting the DP is about as good as you can do really. Unless it looks really off from print stills or something. More often in my experience when we do have print stills people are shocked to discover the DVD looked way off and the "OMG MODERN REVISIONISM" looks pretty close.

[CarlosMeat]

This so sad really. I'm not in the T2 thread since I'm not a fan of the film but The Matrix, Midnight Cowboy , Bull Durham, Forest Gump UHD version of Oblivion all have color which appears to have been digitally manipulated and we are always arguing that you can't say it's wrong and always for the same bunch of reasons . We get nowhere when folks who work with chemical color photography know better IMO.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by CarlosMeat

I'm not in the T2 thread since I'm not a fan of the film

We get nowhere when folks who work with chemical color photography know better IMO.

I'm just guessing but the DP probably worked with film before too.

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

DNR on an early 90's movie is obvious inaccurate.

Everyone is agreed on that, except for people who hate grain regardless of media (and common sense).

With colors it's more a guessing game, so trusting the DP is about as good as you can do really. Unless it looks really off from print stills or something. More often in my experience when we do have print stills people are shocked to discover the DVD looked way off and the "OMG MODERN REVISIONISM" looks pretty close.

People are ridiculed in The Matrix thread for doubting new color grading decisions, because the master was supervised by the DP. But in T2 thread people are loosing their shit over the blue plasma blast and looks like general distrust when it comes to color grading, despite 3D master was supervised by both Cameron and Greenberg.

So what version of Bill Pope program should I trust more - the one from 1999 interview (backed up by the directors and the production designer) or the one that was supervising the new master? Because they contradict each other.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

People are ridiculed in The Matrix thread for doubting new color grading decisions, because the master was supervised by the DP. But in T2 thread people are loosing their shit over the blue plasma blast and looks like general distrust when it comes to color grading, despite 3D master was supervised by both Cameron and Greenberg.

For the record I only lose my shit over the DNR. I feel the same way about the color in T2 as I do this... we don't really know, so might as well trust the creator. Also with The Terminator and Aliens people screamed about the teal and then release print snaps showed the teal was always there, so...

[CarlosMeat]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I'm just guessing but the DP probably worked with film before too.

Your sarcasm has no bounds but I respect it. I say this if it or any other films is revised it is the right of the owners to do so. To say they must be right because they revised it is another subject.

Although Blade Runner was intentionally and publically disclosed as a revision of the original color, to trample out all blue and red in the image doesn't make it right for those reasons.

By the way I personally think that The Matrix looks spectacular but I too feel like it's a mixed bag of revisions.

[OutOfBoose]

I'm grateful these problems aren't technical like sharpening, encoding or cluelessly applied DNR.

Oddly enough, the new color grading of the first film made me more curious about the sequels. They probably will be just as different colors-wise.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

DNR on an early 90's movie is obvious inaccurate. With colors it's more a guessing game, so trusting the DP is about as good as you can do really. Unless it looks really off from print stills or something. More often in my experience when we do have print stills people are shocked to discover the DVD looked way off and the "OMG MODERN REVISIONISM" looks pretty close.

Unfortunately, that is simply NOT the case with the blue tint scenes in question. Yes, some of the green in scenes in the 1st blu-ray were added to match the sequels, but fixing "that" isn't the same thing as the scenes with blue tint or cyan push we're referring to) I haven't seen a SINGLE photo yet from ANY source or any production that shows flipping BLUE OR CYAN *TINT* in the Matrix scenes! NOT *ONE*. I've seen green and I've seen orange, but never BLUE/CYAN.

T2 also has blue added now (blue plasma blast seems a bit severe, I get the sentiment), but it's not what I'd call severe (the overuse of DNR is the real issue for me there).

I get the impression with the overall blue cast changes lately in some movies is that they're trying to "color correct" for incandescent lighting (which is orangey compared to "true white" or "sunlight" temperatures, but if that lighting was accurate for the time, it should not be changed to "cool blue" at a later date. That's revisionism. Many people still choose the warmer "kitchen" temperature LED and fluorescent lights when they see there's a visual difference because "natural" looks "blue" and even harsh compared to what they're used to seeing indoors with incandescents.

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

I'm grateful these problems aren't technical like sharpening, encoding or cluelessly applied DNR.

Oddly enough, the new color grading of the first film made me more curious about the sequels. They probably will be just as different colors-wise.

Well, if they are different, that would definitely be revisionism as they were really green at the theater. Frankly, I wouldn't mind them toning back the green a bit to match the original movie's look, so long as they don't add a bunch of blue/cyan filtering while they're at it....

[OutOfBoose]

@VonMagnum

Oh, there will be cyan. Probably something like this:

The Matrix Reloaded - Original Theatrical Trailer - YouTube

[aetherhole]

Holy effing crap... why is this still being talked about?!

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

I'm grateful these problems aren't technical like sharpening, encoding or cluelessly applied DNR.

Oddly enough, the new color grading of the first film made me more curious about the sequels. They probably will be just as different colors-wise.

Why would they be? Wasn't the only reason the Matrix's color timing ever got altered was so that it lined up with the sequels? They shouldn't be changed all that much, if at all.

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Why would they be? Wasn't the only reason the Matrix's color timing ever got altered was so that it lined up with the sequels? They shouldn't be changed all that much, if at all.

It was altered on the first DVD, it was altered for the trilogy and it was altered again for the UHD. I'm expecting the same for the sequels. At the very least to make them look "better than they did in theaters".

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Why would they be? Wasn't the only reason the Matrix's color timing ever got altered was so that it lined up with the sequels? They shouldn't be changed all that much, if at all.

That was before. But now it looks different again to every prior version, so if Bill Pope is going to maintain consistency between the movies (if not from shot to shot ) then the sequels will shirley be graded with the same kind of overriding colour scheme as the first movie got. And TBH I can't wait to see them because 1) I loved the shit out of how Matrix looks on UHD and B) the amount of complaining from certain members up in here that "the green got changed!!" in the sequels is going to be EPIC.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That was before. But now it looks different again to every prior version, so if Bill Pope is going to maintain consistency between the movies (if not from shot to shot ) then the sequels will shirley be graded with the same kind of overriding colour scheme as the first movie got. And TBH I can't wait to see them because 1) I loved the shit out of how Matrix looks on UHD and B) the amount of complaining from certain members up in here that "the green got changed!!" in the sequels is going to be EPIC.

The sky will fall

[OutOfBoose]

At least The Animatrix can't be supervised by Bill Pope.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by aetherhole

Holy effing crap... why is this still being talked about?!

It's obvious isn't it?

[Geoff D]

Yep, 'cause it's gonna be dragged up again in four or five weeks' time. We're also gonna get a lot of "holy cow Matrix 1 looks great/shit!" from newer responders because a fair few folks will have held out from getting it first time around on UHD.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

@VonMagnum

Oh, there will be cyan. Probably something like this:

Ah yes, I forgot about the freeway scene (i.e. green added to blue sky), although I might categorize that as more of a "teal" in most of the shots than pure cyan, but I suppose that's splitting hairs. Just think, though. If they remove the green, you'll get just the opposite. A normal sunny day in Australia.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I loved the shit...

Originally Posted by Agent Kay

It's obvious isn't it?