The Matrix 4K UHD (1999)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Poya

I know that audio has to be done for home theater. That’s pretty much obvious. My thread (and HD Goofnut’s) was more about how close it can replicate the experience.

How do I do that then, do I need to place x amount of Oscars by the TV for it to work?

[ROSS.T.G.]

For me it depends on how old the mix is. I don’t think near field mixes are bad as long as they are done properly. Sometimes they have too much HF rolloff that sucks the life out of the mix. I don’t like a “bright” sound, I don’t want to listen to a steam whistle in my small listening area. I think the biggest issue with near field mixes is how folks setup their sound at home.

Back in the day everyone strived to get as flat a response as possible but these days it seams like everyone wants a house curve. I don’t like a flat curve, it sounds sterile and artificial. On older mixes it sounds far to harsh and bright. A house curve or HF rolloff can sound dull, even on new mixes. It just sounds artificial.

Every speaker has a natural in room high frequency rolloff. My speakers have a lot of extension. My centre is flat till about 12khz then starts to dip. I limit room correction to only 300hz. I have implemented a house curve in my room with a downward slope.
I find this makes older and newer mixes sound their best in my room. It sounds warm but also highly detailed.

The problem people are having with the Disney mixes isn’t really a problem at all. They haven’t setup their rig properly. They are mastered at 75dB including the LFE channel. Played back on a Flat curve that’s found in Denon and Marantz and Yamaha it will sound “thin”. Just increasing sub trims won’t fix this.

I wish studios would list if mixes are near field or theatrical like Criterion did for the Game. At least this way people will know which is best.

[Poya]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

How do I do that then, do I need to place x amount of Oscars by the TV for it to work?

Worth a try. You can find them on eBay.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

For me it depends on how old the mix is. I don’t think near field mixes are bad as long as they are done properly. Sometimes they have too much HF rolloff that sucks the life out of the mix. I don’t like a “bright” sound, I don’t want to listen to a steam whistle in my small listening area. I think the biggest issue with near field mixes is how folks setup their sound at home.

Back in the day everyone strived to get as flat a response as possible but these days it seams like everyone wants a house curve. I don’t like either, a flat curve sounds sterile and artificial. On older mixes it sounds far to harsh and bright. A house curve or HF rolloff can sound dull, even on new mixes. It just sounds artificial.

Every speaker has a natural in room high frequency rolloff. My speakers have a lot of extension. My centre is flat till about 12khz then starts to dip. I limit room correction to only 300hz. I find this makes older and newer mixes sound their best in my room.

I wish studios would list if mixes are near field or theatrical like Criterion did for the Game. At least this way people will know which is best.

Choice should always be a thing

[Poya]

This is pretty interesting, regarding near field mix:

Cinema Mix to Near Field Mix - YouTube

[VonMagnum]

They'll sometimes use TV speakers for the BD mix? That explains a lot of what is wrong with some mixes and explains the lower sound effect levels compared to the theatrical mix in some cases. Clearly, I wouldn't gauge all home mixes by what only one guy says. Some are much better mixes than others.

[Bn43]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

This was before The Great Surround Sound Abandonment of 2019™. It's a cinema mix so it's got no X-curve rolloff (in case people don't know, theatrical mixes have loads more treble in the dialogue and/or front channels because the speakers are behind the acoustically perforated screen, and this effect of playing through the screen rolls off the treble so it sounds 'normal') and sounds so bright you could cut glass with it.

Oh, that's why dialogue sounds so garbled, muffled and crappy in a cinema? I'm serious, I barely understand characters a lot of the time.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

They'll sometimes use TV speakers for the BD mix? That explains a lot of what is wrong with some mixes and explains the lower sound effect levels compared to the theatrical mix in some cases. Clearly, I wouldn't gauge all home mixes by what only one guy says. Some are much better mixes than others.

It’s common for sound engineers to listen to their work on consumer AVR’s and sound bars.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

It’s common for sound engineers to listen to their work on consumer AVR’s and sound bars.

Yup, just as many colourists will have a reference monitor to grade on but also a client monitor i.e. a consumer TV to check it on.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

It’s common for sound engineers to listen to their work on consumer AVR’s and sound bars.

There's nothing wrong with consumer AVRs, but sound bars are setting the bar pretty low. We now have amazing looking 4K sets like OLED, but most people listen to cheap $99 sound bars. The disconnect is night and day. Home theater should aim for the best and let compression and EQ settings cater to the lowest common denominator. I didn't install an 18 channel sound system to listen to sound tailored to TV speakers.....

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

There's nothing wrong with consumer AVRs, but sound bars are setting the bar pretty low. We now have amazing looking 4K sets like OLED, but most people listen to cheap $99 sound bars. The disconnect is night and day. Home theater should aim for the best and let compression and EQ settings cater to the lowest common denominator. I didn't install an 18 channel sound system to listen to sound tailored to TV speakers.....

I didn’t say there was anything wrong with consumer AVR’s. I have one but it only powers my height channels.

If you customize your frequency response the Disney tracks sound pretty good. By the way, Sony engineers also test on tv speakers and sound bars. It’s common practice and IMHO it’s a good thing. Not everyone wants a full surround setup. A mix SHOULD sound good on everything.

[Wes_k089]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yup, just as many colourists will have a reference monitor to grade on but also a client monitor i.e. a consumer TV to check it on.

Geoff, how difficult was the transition from surround to internal speakers?

I could never go back. The experience is so much more heightened and engaging with surround/Atmos.

[JimDiGriz]

Originally Posted by Wes_k089

Geoff, how difficult was the transition from surround to internal speakers?

I could never go back. The experience is so much more heightened and engaging with surround/Atmos.

Yep. If its a very old (dialogue heavy with little action) film with mono sound I might just listen to the internal speakers but otherwise no. Not for films and/or serious watching anyway.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by JimDiGriz

Yep. If its a very old (dialogue heavy with little action) film with mono sound I might just listen to the internal speakers but otherwise no. Not for films and/or serious watching anyway.

The speakers were on on my current set once, the day I bought it.

[Schwartzy]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

There's nothing wrong with consumer AVRs, but sound bars are setting the bar pretty low. We now have amazing looking 4K sets like OLED, but most people listen to cheap $99 sound bars. The disconnect is night and day. Home theater should aim for the best and let compression and EQ settings cater to the lowest common denominator. I didn't install an 18 channel sound system to listen to sound tailored to TV speakers.....

Well many people probably watch films from netflix on their phone

[KMFDMvsEnya]

The Matrix - Dynamic Range Stats

https://imgur.com/a/HEJ7DzX

ATMOS:
Total RMS Amplitude:
L=-24.93 dB
R=-25.03 dB
C=-21.76 dB
LFE=-27.85 dB

ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -15.69 LUFS


DD 5.1
Total RMS Amplitude:
L=-28.82 dB
R=-28.86 dB
C=-25.82 dB
LFE=-30.98 dB

ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -20.30 LUFS


DTS Cinema 5.1
Total RMS Amplitude:
Dynamic Range Stats
L=-24.29 dB
R=-24.31 dB
C=-21.57 dB
LFE=-36.69 dB

ITU-R BS.1770-3 Loudness: -14.93 LUFS

Dynamic Range Stats

[Show spoiler]

Waveforms

[Show spoiler]

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Wes_k089

Geoff, how difficult was the transition from surround to internal speakers?

I could never go back. The experience is so much more heightened and engaging with surround/Atmos.

Do I miss surround sound every day? Yep yep yep. But my hearing has been damaged by 20 years of aural abuse and where I'm living at the moment is just too small a space to really get a proper 'bubble' of surround, never mind Atmos which was extremely disappointing with the up-firing speakers that I tried. And going from the astonishing sonic assault of Dunkirk in 15/70 IMAX to it sounding like two bees fighting inside a tin can on my own surround sound setup was the final straw, I decided there and then I wasn't gonna bother chasing it any more because nothing would live up to that.

Could I get a lot more quality if I was willing to spend some dosh? Certainly, but while I'll happily drop three and a half grand on a TV I just can't justify spending that much (or more) on sound any more. What started to wean me off it was the first Sony 4K TVs with the 'dumbo ears' speakers, they sounded amazing for what they were and I'm not gonna lie here: when I began to mistake those particular TV speakers FOR my surround setup (I thought I'd turned on the AVR and got halfway through a movie when I realised it was off ) was when I knew that things had irrevocably changed, it's not something I truly *needed* to enjoy a movie at home any more, and with my hearing loss seemingly getting worse by the day when I was pounding my ears with the AVR it felt like the right time to let it go once I'd had The Dunkirk Realisation mentioned above.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

I didn’t say there was anything wrong with consumer AVR’s. I have one but it only powers my height channels.

If you customize your frequency response the Disney tracks sound pretty good. By the way, Sony engineers also test on tv speakers and sound bars. It’s common practice and IMHO it’s a good thing. Not everyone wants a full surround setup. A mix SHOULD sound good on everything.

My point is it cannot sound "great" on TV speakers or cheap sound bars (I suppose if you've never heard the difference you wouldn't necessarily know what you're missing). They're absolute crap in terms of fidelity (or rather the lack thereof). It'd be like watching a 4K movie on a 1985 27" console TV in 480i. You at least need a decent pair of stereo speakers with proper bass output just to get quality stereo, let alone Atmos.

Like I said, all BDs should have a high-end theatrical mix on them for actual home theater systems, not TV speakers or cheap sound bars. Whether it's "near field" or not is almost irrelevant. The problem is that so-called "near field" mixes aren't just adjusting for treble and the like due to sitting closer to the speakers (it has nothing to do with the transparent screen as proper sound transparent screens are rated for flat response or have set EQ curves to correct for them; "Near Field" means you're sitting 3-8 feet or so from your main speakers. Far Field is greater than 8 feet (along a set X-curve as treble should be rolled off the closer you sit; ALL AVRs have this setting these days and it's called "Cinema EQ" on most or "Re-EQ" on THX processors dating clear back to the 1990s.

Leave the TV speakers for what they were designed for, talk shows and the weather report.

[koberulz]

My receiver died last week so I've been watching with TV speakers during that time (not movies, though, they're on hold until I get my gear back) and it sounds absolutely awful.

[Rubykegster]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

This was before The Great Surround Sound Abandonment of 2019™. It's a cinema mix so it's got no X-curve rolloff (in case people don't know, theatrical mixes have loads more treble in the dialogue and/or front channels because the speakers are behind the acoustically perforated screen, and this effect of playing through the screen rolls off the treble so it sounds 'normal') and sounds so bright you could cut glass with it.

Of coursh I can and did activate the X-curve processing to get the proper roll off (though I bet some people listen to it with it off anyway because they prefer the harsher sound) but it still sounds so "hot", especially in the very loud rear channels which are so loud because they're intended for the much wider speaker placement in big auditoria. What works in the cinema doesn't work at home unless you actually have theatrical gear, like that amazingly nutty AndySu bloke.


See above. What plays in the cinema is not always suited for near-field home listening, many of those movies you've listed in your "this won Oscars for..." thread have either been redone for near-field or totally remixed outright into Atmos. Even when we're drooling over having an OG mono or Lt/Rt stereo mix on a disc it's been sweetened for consumer usage e.g. rolling off the X-curve as said.

Is there an online resource or thread that shows which discs have the original theatrical audio with absolutely no adjustments like near field re-mixing, reduced dynamics or reduced treble? If not, I hope somebody would start such a thread as I'd find it very helpful.