Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[MrJoeKalel]

Originally Posted by svenge

The problem is that what you think is top-notch sushi is actually decaying chunks of catfish...

...and wine is rotten grape juice.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by lsalas76

well my opinion is that Lucas added new music so that the cd re-releases would sell for the SE.

doubtful. it was the first time that the complete scores for each film were released. they would have sold either way.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I can easily do both!

I'm with you there, I don't necessarily think they are mutually exclusive.

As per my comments above, all I'm really trying to say is there is a lot of gray area and ignoring it doesn't serve anyone. So let's all (me included) keep that in mind and we'll all be better off.

[TylerDurden]

Originally Posted by happydood

I actually like your analogy though I think you'll by no means convince anyone.

I've seen folks on this board talk about the plots, acting, execution, and effects being a muddled mess and these are arguments for aesthetics. You can't really convince anybody a picture is pretty when they think it's ugly, you can only talk about whether or not an artist achieved what he was trying to accomplish and if he did, whether or not he's a bad artist or a good one compared to all other artists.

It was easy to overlook any of these issues in the original trilogy because there was nothing else to compare it to. Now the new ones get compared to not only the originals but all other effects movies since and they don't hold up for a lot of people. That's totally fine. To say some people don't like sushi implies that Lucas accomplished exactly what he set out to do and that these newer movies were what he intended to make, bad acting at all. The argument I've heard on this board so far doesn't judge in those terms. It simply says the movies were poor, intentional or not. And that's totally fine. What becomes problematic is people implying that you're wrong or misguided for liking them.

To strengthen what you said, Lucas himself did tell Irvin Kirshner that the acting in The Empire Strikes Back didn't need to be as good as he was apparently trying to get it. Make of that, what you will.

I have no problem with people like Episode 1-3. It doesn't change the fact that 2/3 of those movies are cinema poison. The third being passable with some really awesome fx and much improved acting on Haydens part. The fact that Lucas was shamed by the fanbase to dimish the role of Jar Jar binks in ROS proves that his original intent was shoddy and not well thought out.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

1. Many people are using plenty of well-reasoned arguments to explain why they don't like the various changes, tinkering, etc. but you are refusing to listen to them or even accept that they have their own POV. You just dismiss it as "mindless hating/bashing" and don't have anything substantive to say to address it except cheerleading everything "GL" does like he's infallible and above reproach. If anyone is poisoning the well in this discussion, I think it's easy to see who it is.

2. Many people don't recognize the prequels as equal movies because, in their mind/view/opinion, they aren't. Just because something is a "trilogy" does not make it all the same quality. Spider-Man 3. X:Men: The Last Stand. The Godfather III. Lost Boys 3: The Thirst. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, because it doesn't seem like you even read it, but enjoying one thing does not automatically mean enjoying another just because it's part of the same "saga", whatever that nonsense means. People have least-favorite Harry Potter or Twilight books, it doesn't mean they tear up their Fan Club Card and start picketing just because they don't see everything as arbitrarily equal just by merit of existing. That sounds strangely like some form of socialism to me. You MUST like this because you like this! Nope. Last I checked it doesn't work that way and people are free to have preferences based on their own likes and dislikes.

3. The PT IS an expanded afterbirth of the original trilogy. It came out over 20 years later, lest ye forget, and there was obviously a reason The Mighty Infallible Do-No-Wrong Bearded Overlord George Lucas decided to release A New Hope in 1977 and not The Phantom Menace. You act like watching these movies in the order they were released is some kind of affront to your religion. Did you just not even watch Star Wars until 2005, when the "whole story" was finally complete, because the original trilogy technically didn't exist, since it's all one 100% equal "sextology"? No, I'm guessing you just watched them in the order they were released. Seems pretty logical.

4. You've said it 100 times in this thread: "Let go" and enjoy the PT. Yes, I can agree that you'd need to absolutely "let go" to enjoy this "saga" 100% equally in 6 parts. If you can't "let go" of things like needing a story to have continuity, dramatic tension, character development etc. then you just might not enjoy the PT all that much. Personally I can't "let go" of the barometers I've used to measure quality all of my life, and while I don't HATE the PT, which is what you assert everyone who doesn't LOVE it must do, I don't think it is up to the OT's level of quality because I've seen them both and that's how I feel. Judging by popular opinion on every outlet of the internet and every discussion I have ever had with another flesh-and-blood person, this is the overwhelmingly popular stance on this, so if you're going to fight everyone's opinion every inch of the way, you have your work cut out for you.

Your staunchly, incredibly extremist stance of "LOVE ALL STAR WARS OR LOVE NONE OF IT" is the most limiting, arbitrary, senseless reasoning and most meaningless measuring stick in this entire discussion, and I think I don't just speak for myself when I say STOP TRYING TO POLICE WHAT PEOPLE LIKE. You don't need to defend the PT every time it's mentioned, and you definitely don't need to go to the lengths that you're going to, with thinly-veiled insults to people who don't see things your way, or being willfully obtuse when someone tries to present you with a logical argument.

You don't see me trying to force my opinion on you or make offhand remarks to people replying to you, dismissing your opinion as some kind of delusional fever dream. You like them all, awesome. Nobody is trying to stop you.

Take a chapter from that book, and LET US BE.

Thanks Shaft, I'm sure since you're an adult you can respect that and maybe contribute something to this discussion besides dismissing every single viewpoint you don't totally agree with. It's called compromise.

Oh man, I think this post calls for one of those long, drawn-out claps that start out slow and then gradually pick up pace into a thunderous applause!

This has my vote for best post of this entire thread!

Originally Posted by mvckalel

I think most of us agree that the OT has one really good film (VI) and two excellent films (IV and V). However, we dislike how GL tries to tie in the PT with the OT, and not the other way around. He established history in IV and had that to base the rest, but he chose to use the PT instead.

I agree that there are connections and that the movies "rhyme" with each other somehow, but that does NOT make them good. Yes, Anakin blew up that robot base thing in space in I, while Luke destroyed the Death Star in IV. Yes, Anakin lost his hand in II, and Luke lost his in V. Yes, Anakin died and Darth Vader was born in III, and Darth Vader died and Anakin was 'reborn' in VI, as well as the "NOooOoOOOOooo!!!!11!!!!" line rhyming in both (yuck). Yes, the whole Gungan (nature) versus the robots (robots) in I mirrors Ewoks (marketing at kids) against the Empire...blah blah blah. That does NOT make movies good...

I agree with this. If anything, a lot of the "rhyming" between the trilogies, and most any symbolism between them, is just very superficial and forced on the part of the PT.

For instance, while both Anakin and Luke get their hands cut off in their respective second episodes, it doesn't have the same symbolic relavance when it happens to Anakin as it does when it happens to Luke.

Luke gets his hand cut off just before finding out that Vader is his father. Having a limb torn off sort of symbolizes how he is being torn apart inside emotionally upon this revelation of what to him is tragic information. Plus prior to this, Luke already had enough of a reason to have a specific grudge with Vader since he was under the belief that Vader had killed his father.

On the other hand, when Anakin gets his hand cut off, it doesn't really have the same kind of meaning. Other than having a general amount of anger towards Dooku for being the "bad guy" and generally betraying the Jedi order, Dooku wasn't directly anyone of importance to Anakin. Anakin doesn't have a direct, personal existing beef with Dooku, and doesn't go through any kind of emotional turmoil during this scene. If anything, it would have made more sense for his hand to get cut off during the scene where he is rescuing his mom from the Tuskan Raiders. While the circumstances would have been different, that would still be more along the lines of a similar moment of tragic emotion for him than anything that happened during that Dooku scene. A bunch of Raiders could have teamed up on him, and while he would still get the upper hand and win in the long run, his wrecklessness due to his overblown emotions would leave him open to being signficantly wounded in this way.

That would match up much more symbolically with the OT in terms of the kinds of emotions these characters are feeling when they go through this respective loss of a more limb. But instead Lucas was more concerned with making it superfically "rhyme" by having it happen at roughly the same point in each movie... towards the end, during a lightsaber battle.



Then there's the mirror between Luke blowing up the death star and Anakin blowing up the space station. Luke actually did most of the work, with the help from the force in the end (which he had at least some training with earlier in the movie, all be it very quick and limited). Anakin, on the other hand, had the auto pilot do half of the work while saying things like "oops" a lot, had no actual training what-so-ever with how to use or understand the force, and blew up that space station. It was a forced rhyme if ever there was one.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. When looking at the OT on it's own, there's already a great deal of symbolism and meaning behind a lot of what is going on. On the otherhand, with the PT, there a lot of forced "mirroring" that doesn't really have the same meaning as the respective scenes in the OT, but are just forced as a result, and really don't work very well on their own merrits. The OT can work on it's own, but the PT is practically dependant on the OT for these scenes to make any symbolic sense, and even then they are still rather weak.

Originally Posted by SDon1969

I would say 4,5,6,1,2,3 for a newbie, 1,2,3,4,5,6 for those who have seen 'em all. Not sure how many would agree with that but I would want to see 'em the way they were released at first, and in order later.

I largely agree with this. There are advantages and disadvantages to both forms of viewing, but definately for someone new seeing the films for the first time, I think the OT first and PT second makes the most sense.

Part of the problem with the PT (beyond the acting, character development, etc) is that it ... especially Episode 1... was made more so for an audience who has already seen the OT, and not so much as a starting point for someone coming into the series new.

In Episode IV, we have Obi Wan explaining the force and everything to Luke. We see Luke learning, and we are learning my extension. But Episode 1 sort of "hits the ground running". There's really no explanation about who or what the Jedi are, how the force works, or anything like that. We just see 2 Jedi in action almost immediately after the start of the film. The only thing that we do get is an explanation about the midichlorians, but otherwise everything else we are assumed to already know. And granted, 99.9% of people who went to see Episode 1 in the theater did already know this info. None the less, if Lucas's intention was for future generations to watch and discover these movies in the order of 1-6, and by the sheer virtue that this is meant to be the first in a 6-episode story, there really should have been some kind of equivelant introduction to the concept of the Jedi and the force.

Sure, find a clever way to do it as to not make it feel like a complete rehash of what we got in ANH and the OT in general (i.e. maybe show a group of people... maybe a new batch of "younglings"... getting a tour of the Jedi temple and being given an explanation about the Jedi order), but still, make it actually "feel" like the first episode.

Likewise, there are little nods and inside jokes that only people who've already seen the OT would really get. For instance, we see Qui Gon use (or at least attempt to use) the Jedi mind trick twice early on in Episode 1. The first time is on Boss Nass. And that's fine, but it's actually pretty subtle, IMO. Sure, long time Star Wars fans will pick up on it, but I can easily see someone completely brand new to the series who is starting off with Ep 1 not picking up on it or getting what is going on there. Then the next time he tries to use it is on Watto... and we get the little joke of "What do you think you are some kind of Jedi waving your hand around like that?". I have nothing against the joke, itself, but again, it's the sort of thing that makes sense to someone who has been familiar with these concepts for sometime, and anyone brand new to the series is probably going to be lost by that statement. Not something that makes sense in the first half of the first episode.

And then there's even stuff like seeing Yoda battle for the first time in Episode II. Part of what made that exciting was having already been familiar for some time with this little creature as being one of the greatest Jedi Masters ever, but having never really seen him in action. And they play up on this in that movie with all of the dramatic build up to him pulling out his lightsaber with the way the camera moves in close on him, etc. That's a moment that wouldn't be as existing if we hadn't already seen him in a few movies prior to that.

And of course there's all of the superficial symbolism as I talked about earlier, in which a lot of stuff is just put in the PT to force it to rhyme with the OT, rather than just making the prequel films work well on their own merrits, and then fitting in any possible "rhyming" where it would actually make sense both in context of the whole saga and for each of the PT movies on their own.

At the same time, there are advantages to watching the whole story in order, once you are already familiar with it, and seeing the progression of Anakin as a kid to his redemption at the end of Return of the Jedi. But, it's still not the best way to watch it for the first time. And Lucas simply saying otherwise doesn't magically make it so.

[Blu-man08]

Originally Posted by mvckalel

...and wine is rotten grape juice.

... and honey is bee vomit.

[gregmasciola]

Originally Posted by KubrickFan

Oh, by the way, Lucas redid the Han vs. Greedo again:

Han Shot Last - YouTube

Looks much better to me .

I love it! The idea of it is already funny, but the expressions on Han's face make it hillarious! I wish this were included in the spoof section in the bonus features.

[HelmutNewton]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Lucas was not just the producer of episodes V and VI. He was the writer and quasi-director overseeing the whole saga. Additionally he didn't change the films - he just updated some technical aspects of which he and ILM was in charge anyway.

I disagree. According to on-set reports, Lucas wasn't involved as much in the actual shooting of "Empire". IMHO, to call him a "quasi-director" is overstating the matter.

In addition, changes such as Luke's scream in "Empire" (now gone, thankfully), Vader's new "Nooooooo!", and the "Jedi Rocks" number alter the tone and dramatic effect of the scenes they are in. They are not merely "technical aspects" which have been changed.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by mvckalel

...and wine is rotten grape juice.

and smurfs are Max Rebo turds...

My local Wal-Mart has their shipment of Star Wars in.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

The fact that Lucas was shamed by the fanbase to dimish the role of Jar Jar binks in ROS proves that his original intent was shoddy and not well thought out.

It would have been fun to have seen what George Lucas had in store for Jar Jar. Basically writing him out of the Saga because older fans didn't like him was a bit extreme but I'm sure he would have been just an afterthought in Episodes II & III.

He should have died of dehydration on Tatooine within minutes been a semi-water based creature. He was definitely a fish-out-of-water character. His main goal was to introduce us to the Gungan's and bridge the gap between the Nabooan's. After that he should have been shot in the face....

[happydood]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

I have no problem with people like Episode 1-3. It doesn't change the fact that 2/3 of those movies are cinema poison. The third being passable with some really awesome fx and much improved acting on Haydens part. The fact that Lucas was shamed by the fanbase to dimish the role of Jar Jar binks in ROS proves that his original intent was shoddy and not well thought out.

I don't know how to say to you that what you're saying is not a fact, but it really isn't. And you don't have a special insight to why George Lucas does what he does unless your him.

Look, I'm a cup half full kind of guy. I look at what I think are aesthetically bad movies like Ed Wood's entire output and I laugh. I don't laugh in a 'That's so terrible' kind of way, I laugh in a 'Look what they tried to accomplish and failed' kind of way.

You can absolutely say that the execution was shoddy and not well thought out, but you can't say the intent was shoddy and not well thought out. And I'm not trying to make this some petty comment on semantics or anything like that, I just hope you understand that statements like 'these movies are cinema poison and it's a fact' doesn't help your argument and it's not going to convince anyone. I completely sympathize with you even if I don't agree. Now let's get a little solidarity going in here, huh?

Because the only truth I know is this. When our loved ones walk into the room and see us posting repeatedly on a Star Wars thread, they think we are all nerds. They may not say it, but they think we're nerds.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by svenge

decaying chunks of catfish...

Originally Posted by mvckalel

...and wine is rotten grape juice.

Originally Posted by Blu-man08

... and honey is bee vomit.

And Jell-O is collagen extracted from the boiled bones, connective tissues, and intestines of animals.

Man, I'm gettin' hungry!


Less than 34 hours to go until Star Wars will be mine!

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by Beard Esquire

Yeah, why did GL ditch Lapti Nek in favour of that clunky piece? Did he ever give a reason?
He never liked the way her mouth moved or articulated the song.

Really?! That was his reason? And yet he's happy for a main character to be played by a puppet with no mouth articulation? (Don't get me wrong, I love Yoda, but it does kinda make a joke of his excuse here.)

I always really loved the way she moved and sang in Lapti Nek. It made me smile. But since Lucas had to reshoot the sequence either way, I wonder why he didn't just redo the character, then? Why did that require changing the music?

I've always assumed he was making a play for getting a release single out of it, so he made the music more contemporary pop. Like turning the Ewok Celebration into something a marching band could play.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

El Jay, there are tons of themes and issues that can be talked about in analyzing the saga. You must admit that you can get more complexity and a deeper understanding out of 6 movies than just 3.

Do these movies call for complexity Do I need to know that Darth Vader was once an annoying 8 year old? Star Wars isn't a Darth Vader character study, it's a fun action movie. There are cool bad guys, and there are good guys, there is adventure, excitement, peril, planet-sized space stations, etc.

[LetoAtreides82]

Originally Posted by DanzG

It really depends on how often you order from there really. For me it is worth it because I order movies every week of the year sometimes twice or three times a week. If I went to a B&M store every time like that I would spend well over 80 bucks a year just in gas but if someone just orders every now and then I would agree it is not worth it then.

I'd imagine you'd be spending more than 80 bucks on gas a year. Let's say you go to a B&M store twice a week, that's 112 times in a year, and if you spend 1 gallon each round trip to the B&M store that'd be almost $400 on gas alone assuming you're paying $3.50 a gallon. Let's not even mention sales tax

[Jason520C]

Originally Posted by Beard Esquire

and smurfs are Max Rebo turds...

My local Wal-Mart has their shipment of Star Wars in.

How'd you find that out?

I only really ask because I went to Wal*Mart myself yesterday, and asked about anything going on at midnight for the BDs. They pretty much told me:

"Oh yeah that's coming out, I don't think we'll be having anything for it but as long as we have it, you can get it [at midnight]. Call back if you want to make sure though."

So they sounded like they either A. Didn't get them in yet as of yesterday (which was right before noon IIRC, so they could have received shipment of it afterward) or B. They were just specifying, "Yeah, we're a 24 hour store, if something comes out on a certain date, then you're definitely gonna be able to get it on the stroke of midnight."

Should I just call them and think they'll tell me if they got them in?

[kurtlingle]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

+1
How many times did people watch Episode I in theaters? I saw it 6 times attempting to hope for the best. But when the dust settled we were left on the podrace track like so much bantha poodoo.

Let me get this straight. You went to see Ep 1 6 times (6!!!) and yet you thought it was bad? The first or second time was not enough?

I liked it better the more times I saw it (VHS then DVD). (I can't remember if I saw it more than once in theaters).

[Romansh]

Originally Posted by KubrickFan

Oh, by the way, Lucas redid the Han vs. Greedo again:

Han Shot Last - YouTube

Looks much better to me .

[Pondosinatra]

Originally Posted by kurtlingle

Let me get this straight. You went to see Ep 1 6 times (6!!!) and yet you thought it was bad? The first or second time was not enough?

I liked it better the more times I saw it (VHS then DVD). (I can't remember if I saw it more than once in theaters).

Yippeee!

[Pondosinatra]

Originally Posted by sardaukar1977

I love it!!
hahahahah!!

It's funny because it's true...