Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[nathan_393]

This is silly. His leg is fine for the same reason he can fall about a million feet in Episode I and get right back up and keep going. It's called an action movie. His leg should be broken, but because the whole thing is there for brief dramatic tension, it's not. That's all. Not completely believable story-telling, but this is a story with laser swords too. So whatever.

[Valaquen]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Nor did I watch it with "anger" simply because I noticed these plot holes.

I should also note that I love and cherish the old Star Wars flicks, all 3 of them - I wanted nothing more than to have 6 Star Wars flicks to love and cherish. I'll never forget seeing AotC upon its release with my brother; we were in the right age demographic, grew up with the films, but by the Coruscant chase sequence [10-15mins in?] we were slumping in our chairs, bored out of our minds. It was so soulless. So was the "romance." I'd never felt that way about anything in the other movies. I certainly didn't pay [<-- a big deal when you're a kid] and walk into these movies with the goal of disliking 'em!

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Nor did I watch it with "anger" simply because I noticed these plot holes.

But you never said: "Damn, Luke falling down this abyss in Bespin - no way he could have survived this! This movie sucks." All I'm saying is, if you are this thorough and dissect a fairy tale in such a unforgiving manner than you have to put down your rose-tinted glasses and do it for all 6 of them.

It's simply because you liked TESB from the get go that you don't mind these things. After all they are not important to the believability of sci-fi-fantasy-fairy tale with a poetic and symbolic way of telling its story over 6 episodes.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by nathan_393

This is silly. His leg is fine for the same reason he can fall about a million feet in Episode I and get right back up and keep going. It's called an action movie. His leg should be broken, but because the whole thing is there for brief dramatic tension, it's not. That's all. Not completely believable story-telling, but this is a story with laser swords too. So whatever.

Exactly!

[phansson]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I'm beginning to think you guys have no concept of physics.

I think that their are quite a few problems with Star Wars and physics. Hell, Georgie boy didn't even know that a parsec is a measurement of distance until the prequel trilogy.

It all ways bothered me that Obi Wan was walking in less than 2 minutes like nothing happened. Of course it was "tamed" by the horrible delivery of "his fate will be the same as ours" line by Hayden.

[Valaquen]

Luke survives the fall but is battered and bruise afterwards [check out his face on the Falcon afterwards]. Obi-Wan doesn't so much as hobble, IIRC, [there was a lot riding on the mental trauma, too]. The Obi-Wan leg crushing didn't bother me so much, save for the effect. It looked lousy, as though McGregor had been dragged and dropped on a PC

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by Valaquen

Luke survives the fall but is battered and bruise afterwards [check out his face on the Falcon afterwards]. Obi-Wan doesn't so much as hobble, IIRC, [there was a lot riding on the mental trauma, too]. The Obi-Wan leg crushing didn't bother me so much, save for the effect. It looked lousy, as though McGregor had been dragged and dropped on a PC

I'm the same way. The effect was the crappy part.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

But you never said: "Damn, Luke falling down this abyss in Bespin - no way he could have survived this! This movie sucks." All I'm saying is, if you are this thorough and dissect a fairy tale in such a unforgiving manner than you have to put down your rose-tinted glasses and do it for all 6 of them.

It's simply because you liked TESB from the get go that you don't mind these things. After all they are not important to the believability of sci-fi-fantasy-fairy tale with a poetic and symbolic way of telling its story over 6 episodes.

I don't care if it has a good or bad explanation. I really don't... but if people are going to make explanations and act like it makes perfect sense, I'm gonna call that out.

Don't explain it = cool, I'll roll with it.

Make outlandish excuses for every single inconsistency = I challenge it and laugh at it's ridiculousness.

[Shin sam]

Originally Posted by nathan_393

I have a PS3 as well. I'd have to check when I'm home later today.

Cool.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Originally Posted by nathan_393

This is silly. His leg is fine for the same reason he can fall about a million feet in Episode I and get right back up and keep going. It's called an action movie. His leg should be broken, but because the whole thing is there for brief dramatic tension, it's not. That's all. Not completely believable story-telling, but this is a story with laser swords too. So whatever.

The problem again isn't the suspension of disbelief but as always with the PT: sloppy (digital) film making. I believe we wouldn't have this discussion if some physical prop strut had actually fallen on McGregor's (or a stunt guy's) legs and pinned him down while Obi-Was was unconscious, regardless of its implied weight. But no, they had to do it in the computer with a bad over-the-top effect.

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by Colonel Kurtz

The problem again isn't the suspension of disbelief but as always with the PT: sloppy (digital) film making. I believe we wouldn't have this discussion if some physical prop strut had actually fallen on McGregor's (or a stunt guy's) legs and pinned him down while Obi-Was was unconscious, regardless of its implied weight. But no, they had to do it in the computer with a bad over-the-top effect.

I think the films needed a bigger budget and a little bit more time in the oven. Episode III is the closest to a well-cooked casserole out of the 3 (and I think films should always be the visually entertaining equivalent of a good well-cooked casserole).

Episode II didn't even make it to the oven.

At least Episode I had some cool action sequences...

But the digital visuals are clearly the area where the films fall the most flat. It's just sad, given the budget that could have been given to each film, that they still looked so flat.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I don't care if it has a good or bad explanation. I really don't... but if people are going to make explanations and act like it makes perfect sense, I'm gonna call that out.

Don't explain it = cool, I'll roll with it.

Make outlandish excuses for every single inconsistency = I challenge it and laugh at it's ridiculousness.

It was also a ridculous special effect and totally unnecessary. Would have worked just fine with Obi Wan being tossed and knocked unconscious (that happens plenty in action movies too). Lucas doesn't get the concept of 'less is more' is his current films. If he scaled back just a little bit on the PT and didn't overstuff them with needless effects sequences, they really could have been great films. Oh well.

[kurtlingle]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

What does that thing look like it weighs?

I'm beginning to think you guys have no concept of physics.

"Oh, it's just a metal sidewalk, it can't weigh but 3 or 4 tons... yeah I mean as long as it only hits you in the hip and sort of scoots you a couple feet, you'll be walkin' away from that, yes sirree..."

Please allow something that weighs several hundred pounds at the very least to fall and "rest gently" on your legs, merely "scooting you a couple feet" and tell me how that turns out for ya.

In real life, yes that would have broke his hip, and he'd be in healing for 6 months.

I can't believe everyone is debating this.
It's just a movie - there are lots of things in sci-fi that don't match up. Are we going to debate the weight of lightsabers again? (that was like 10 pages).

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by kurtlingle

In real life, yes that would have broke his hip, and he'd be in healing for 6 months.

I can't believe everyone is debating this.
It's just a movie - there are lots of things in sci-fi that don't match up. Are we going to debate the weight of lightsabers again? (that was like 10 pages).

That was more interesting than S Coils and heavy weight on legs. I'd take that over this.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I don't care if it has a good or bad explanation. I really don't... but if people are going to make explanations and act like it makes perfect sense, I'm gonna call that out.

Don't explain it = cool, I'll roll with it.

Make outlandish excuses for every single inconsistency = I challenge it and laugh at it's ridiculousness.

Okay, I'm cool with that. It's my mistake that I even consider these supposed "faults". But I like the movies and so I give them the benefit of a doubt just as you do with The Godfather or TESB. Its fiction after all.

For me it's "Avatar" that I see as many people see the prequels. It's IMO a stupid movie with plotholes, inconsistent characters and a narrative for 6-year olds. Because I don't like it I find faults wherever I look...

What I'm saying is: I get where you're coming from...

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

But you never said: "Damn, Luke falling down this abyss in Bespin - no way he could have survived this! This movie sucks." All I'm saying is, if you are this thorough and dissect a fairy tale in such a unforgiving manner than you have to put down your rose-tinted glasses and do it for all 6 of them.

It's simply because you liked TESB from the get go that you don't mind these things. After all they are not important to the believability of sci-fi-fantasy-fairy tale with a poetic and symbolic way of telling its story over 6 episodes.

Luke falls a great distance for sure, but he is caught in Bespin's exhaust ports which apparently slow his fall and change it from plummeting to more like a giant slide from what I recall. Pretty simple explanation to be honest (not to mention pretty obvious, I mean you see him basically slowed down and then he slides right through the exhaust port...)

[Zuiun]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

If you somehow dislike these movies you will always look for and find inconsistencies. You will be even happy to find them and gloat about them because it proves your initial feeling right.

There is no logic to this statement.

Plenty of hardcore fans of the OT have been discussing the inconsistencies ever since TESB came out and essentially rewrote much of what Lucas laid out in ANH.

It is not necessary to dislike the movies in order to find (or even be frustrated with) plot holes, inconsistencies, or continuity errors.

It is well documented that Lucas wrote Star Wars as a stand-alone film. Anakin and Vader were two separate people. Luke and Leia were not related (I believe they weren't even written to be the same age originally). Kenobi had never before seen the droids, nor was part of some plot to hide Luke from Vader. Etc.

Everything that came after Star Wars (even the name "A New Hope") was an attempt to shoe horn in a more complex story than was written into the Star Wars shooting script. This resulted in some very blatant and clumsily handled ("from a certain point of view...") inconsistencies -- even in the OT -- that fans have been talking about for decades.

And many of those fans don't even remotely dislike the OT.

So no, it doesn't follow that someone noticing further blatant inconsistencies between the PT and the OT must therefore dislike the PT.

My believe is that Lucas has continued to change his mind about the story he wants to tell. With every film, he deviates further and further away from the world he created in Star Wars. I actually find it to be part of the charm of Star Wars that the whole thing is a mess. It almost *is* like those old adventure serials where there was a different writer on every episode who would cheerfully toss out or change everything that went before in order to tell their own story.

I enjoy the hell out of the Star Wars films for what they are, but at the same time I do wish there had been a better thought out master plan for all them, because I see the potential for a superior story to what we were given.

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by Zuiun

There is no logic to this statement.

Plenty of hardcore fans of the OT have been discussing the inconsistencies ever since TESB came out and essentially rewrote much of what Lucas laid out in ANH.

It is not necessary to dislike the movies in order to find (or even be frustrated with) plot holes, inconsistencies, or continuity errors.

It is well documented that Lucas wrote Star Wars as a stand-alone film. Anakin and Vader were two separate people. Luke and Leia were not related (I believe they weren't even written to be the same age originally). Kenobi had never before seen the droids, nor was part of some plot to hide Luke from Vader. Etc.

Everything that came after Star Wars (even the name "A New Hope") was an attempt to shoe horn in a more complex story than was written into the Star Wars shooting script. This resulted in some very blatant and clumsily handled ("from a certain point of view...") inconsistencies -- even in the OT -- that fans have been talking about for decades.

And many of those fans don't even remotely dislike the OT.

So no, it doesn't follow that someone noticing further blatant inconsistencies between the PT and the OT must therefore dislike the PT.

My believe is that Lucas has continued to change his mind about the story he wants to tell. With every film, he deviates further and further away from the world he created in Star Wars. I actually find it to be part of the charm of Star Wars that the whole thing is a mess. It almost *is* like those old adventure serials where there was a different writer on every episode who would cheerfully toss out or change everything that went before in order to tell their own story.

I enjoy the hell out of the Star Wars films for what they are, but at the same time I do wish there had been a better thought out master plan for all them, because I see the potential for a superior story to what we were given.

I must be the only person alive who likes the "from a certain point of view" speech. I just like the philosophy behind it and wish it had more of a role in ROTS and AOTC. Frankly, Anankin should have fallen because of a growing distrust of the Jedi - his POV should have more obviously been that they were evil. That kind of ambiguity really could have strengthened the films for me.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Zuiun

I enjoy the hell out of the Star Wars films for what they are, but at the same time I do wish there had been a better thought out master plan for all them, because I see the potential for a superior story to what we were given.

I hear that a lot! But can someone give me a brief synopsis of the story and the main characters development that would be an improvement over the three episodes we got... Many people claim f.e. that it would have been a better move to start Episode I with a grown up Anakin instead of a child. I wonder how this could have worked because we wouldn't see his attachement to his mother, we wouldn't have characters like Qui-Gon or the Pod-Race or fairy tale characters like JarJar, Sebulba, Watto or the young Queen we wouldn't get such a gentle introduction to the Star Wars-universe. I often get the feeling that people would have liked a hybrid of "Aliens" and "Braveheart" with lightsabers...

[Zuiun]

Originally Posted by nathan_393

I must be the only person alive who likes the "from a certain point of view" speech. I just like the philosophy behind it and wish it had more of a role in ROTS and AOTC.

The philosophy itself wasn't the problem. Had the Vader/Anakin thing been planned from the beginning, Kenobi could still have given the "Vader killed your father" speech in ANH, but written better. Guinness was a skilled enough actor to pull off the ambiguity necessary to make that come off as not the complete truth.

The reason it's so clumsy, though, is because it clearly was an attempt to completely rewrite the story from ANH.