Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Sith

I think the OT is alot easier to understand and therefore has more fans. Alot of the stuff going on in the PT is underneath the surface so much that not everyone gets it.

That might depend on how generously one is willing to define 'underneath the surface'. Take midichlorians and Anakin's virgin birth. Is the significance of those things underneath the surface or is it simply not there?

If you have to listen to the commentary track on the third movie to understand what they were thinking about doing (but never actually did) with elements of the first movie I think you've pretty clearly passed from subtle storytelling to just plain bad storytelling.

That's not to say loose end never work. I actually liked the fact that the Sifo-Dias thread was essentially left dangling.

But for the most part all the 'well if you squint and tilt your head just right you can see that it all clearly makes sense' stuff seems more like post-hoc rationalizing.

[JTStarkiller]

So, is Kamino still unfound on disc 7? It seems like such a glaring omission. Was holding out for the possibility that it's an easter egg (which would be super cool because of the fact that Kamino has been erased from the Jedi archives), but it's been a couple weeks now and to my knowledge still hasn't been found on the disc. I'm dying to get some insight from the design team on that planet!

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by JTStarkiller

So, is Kamino still unfound on disc 7? It seems like such a glaring omission. Was holding out for the possibility that it's an easter egg (which would be super cool because of the fact that Kamino has been erased from the Jedi archives), but it's been a couple weeks now and to my knowledge still hasn't been found on the disc. I'm dying to get some insight from the design team on that planet!

I've been away - Canadian Thanksgiving was this weekend and I'm back in school so time is limited - what's the word on any real Easter eggs for the set?

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by octagon

That might depend on how generously one is willing to define 'underneath the surface'. Take midichlorians and Anakin's virgin birth. Is the significance of those things underneath the surface or is it simply not there?

If you have to listen to the commentary track on the third movie to understand what they were thinking about doing (but never actually did) with elements of the first movie I think you've pretty clearly passed from subtle storytelling to just plain bad storytelling.

That's not to say loose end never work. I actually liked the fact that the Sifo-Dias thread was essentially left dangling.

But for the most part all the 'well if you squint and tilt your head just right you can see that it all clearly makes sense' stuff seems more like post-hoc rationalizing.

Sorry, but the significance of the midichlorians is essential to the Star Wars myth! The idea was there from the beginning - not spelled out in the OT but still woven into the fabric of these movies. They are important for Luke and Leias significance, to differenciate the Jedi from a hoaky religious cult and as a tool to identify force-sensitive children or "the chosen one" for that matter. They are also a strong image of how Jedi and Sith differ in their understanding of the force. The Jedi are patient and let the force talk to them and flow through them. The Sith want to dominate the midichlorians, want to influence them to gain more power.

[octagon]

Midichlorians are hardly 'essential' to the Star Wars mythos. They weren't even mentioned onscreen until decades after the movie-going public had enthusiastically embraced that mythos.

The people who flocked to the original films didn't need midichorians to understand that Luke was important or that force potential was inheritable. They didn't need a 'force blood test' to know that Han was wrong and that the force was real. And they certainly didn't need to know (or even care, for that matter) how Jedi candidates were selected for training (and smart money says most of them still don't care how Jedi candidates were selected for training).

And when midichlorians finally were mentioned - decades after people fell in love with Star Wars, he repeated for emphasis - they were met with a resounding 'umm, what?'.

Midichlorians weren't essential, they were an embellishment and that could have been fine but unfortunately they were an embelishment that undercut what had already been working wonderfully for decades.

Midichlorians and Anakin's virgin birth appear in TPM for one reason only - to set the stage for a reveal that never happens. Once GL and company decided Palpatine wasn't going have his own oh so dramatic 'Luke, I am your father' moment virtually everything revolving around midichlorian counts and the circumstances of Anakin's conception was rendered entirely superfluous.

Without that reveal there was no real story reason to devote the first movie to Anakin's childhood. In fact, there was little reason to devote any significant screentime to Anakin's childhood at all. Shmi could have found Anakin floating down the Nile in a basket made of bullrushes or he could have been fathered by a transient transport pilot who disappeared or was killed in space and the subsequent story wouldn't have changed in the slightest.

Midichlorians weren't essential for the simple reason that George changed his mind about making them essential. Unfortunately he didn't change his mind until after they wrote, filmed and released the first act of the story.

But that's how it goes sometimes....

[P@t_Mtl]

What can you do? The guy who created the story figured Midichlorians were important, that's how it goes

[El_Jay]

Well, you can still talk about what a dumb decision it was, a decision that turned something cool, ethereal, mystical, inexplicable into something you can measure with a blood test and quantify with a number.

[P@t_Mtl]

Sure you can, I guess???

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by octagon

Midichlorians are hardly 'essential' to the Star Wars mythos. They weren't even mentioned onscreen until decades after the movie-going public had enthusiastically embraced that mythos.

The people who flocked to the original films didn't need midichorians to understand that Luke was important or that force potential was inheritable. They didn't need a 'force blood test' to know that Han was wrong and that the force was real. And they certainly didn't need to know (or even care, for that matter) how Jedi candidates were selected for training (and smart money says most of them still don't care how Jedi candidates were selected for training).

And when midichlorians finally were mentioned - decades after people fell in love with Star Wars, he repeated for emphasis - they were met with a resounding 'umm, what?'.

Midichlorians weren't essential, they were an embellishment and that could have been fine but unfortunately they were an embelishment that undercut what had already been working wonderfully for decades.

Midichlorians and Anakin's virgin birth appear in TPM for one reason only - to set the stage for a reveal that never happens. Once GL and company decided Palpatine wasn't going have his own oh so dramatic 'Luke, I am your father' moment virtually everything revolving around midichlorian counts and the circumstances of Anakin's conception was rendered entirely superfluous.

Without that reveal there was no real story reason to devote the first movie to Anakin's childhood. In fact, there was little reason to devote any significant screentime to Anakin's childhood at all. Shmi could have found Anakin floating down the Nile in a basket made of bullrushes or he could have been fathered by a transient transport pilot who disappeared or was killed in space and the subsequent story wouldn't have changed in the slightest.

Midichlorians weren't essential for the simple reason that George changed his mind about making them essential. Unfortunately he didn't change his mind until after they wrote, filmed and released the first act of the story.

But that's how it goes sometimes....

So, why did it HAVE to be Luke to face Vader? Why didn't Yoda and Obi Wan recruit and train other Jedi in secret? Why couldn't Han be trained in the Jedi-arts too? Why is Luke so sensitive to the force without having any training - similar to Anakin in Episode I? I would say the midichlorians are even more important to understanding the OT than they are to the prequels...

In Star Wars nothing is just "magic" - that is what I like about it and what differenciates it from LotR or traditional fantasy. The magic Sword is a LASER-sword; god / magic is an EVERGY FIELD that can be experienced through SYMBIONTS inside the cells; orcs / demons are CLONES or ROBOTS.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

So, why did it HAVE to be Luke to face Vader? Why didn't Yoda and Obi Wan recruit and train other Jedi in secret? Why couldn't Han be trained in the Jedi-arts too? Why is Luke so sensitive to the force without having any training - similar to Anakin in Episode I? I would say the midichlorians are even more important to understanding the OT than they are to the prequels...

In Star Wars nothing is just "magic" - that is what I like about it and what differenciates it from LotR or traditional fantasy. The magic Sword is a LASER-sword; god / magic is an EVERGY FIELD that can be experienced through SYMBIONTS inside the cells; orcs / demons are CLONES or ROBOTS.

Because some people are more "sensitive" to the Force in the same way that in your beloved Fantasy examples some are more sensitive and able to wield magic or the power of their mind, or their ability to speak to dragons, etc?

It's a fairly well-established staple of the heroic tradition that there is a chosen one that is able to wield power on a higher level than anyone else. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Neo, Frodo Baggins (to a degree), Strider, Eragon, etc etc are all examples of this in popular culture.

I find it especially telling that you've been toeing the hard line on it being a fantasy and a retelling/recapturing of myth RIGHT UP UNTIL IT AFFECTS YOUR ABILITY TO DEFEND THE PREQUELS.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Because some people are more "sensitive" to the Force in the same way that in your beloved Fantasy examples some are more sensitive and able to wield magic or the power of their mind, or their ability to speak to dragons, etc?

It's a fairly well-established staple of the heroic tradition that there is a chosen one that is able to wield power on a higher level than anyone else. Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Neo, Frodo Baggins (to a degree), Strider, Eragon, etc etc are all examples of this in popular culture.

I find it especially telling that you've been toeing the hard line on it being a fantasy and a retelling/recapturing of myth RIGHT UP UNTIL IT AFFECTS YOUR ABILITY TO DEFEND THE PREQUELS.

That's not true at all! Star Wars was supposed to be a "retelling" of the old myths and not a carbon copy. Joseph Campbell discovered that myths loose their power when our minds and science catch up with them. We have to have a myth for the modern day that deals with frontiers we haven't reached yet - outer space for that matter. (Or the inner mind as in the Matrix)

And I don't defend "the prequels" - I defend all Star Wars Episodes. The OT just doesn't get attacked that much. I can't argue with someone who says I just don't like it. Star Wars is not for me... That's totally fine. But if you claim that these films are mindless and cobbled together with random additions that have no meaning - expect me to disagree!

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

What can you do? The guy who created the story figured Midichlorians were important, that's how it goes

Yeah, but he seemed to abandon that storyline/subplot real quick. The Midichlorian thing was basically dropped after Episode I, right? So, it hardly seems worth even mentioning that the force is basically 'cells' and whatever. It was important to Lucas until he changed his mind and decided not to go down the avenue of revealing Palpatine as Anakin's father (hinted at in ROTS during the Opera when he says that "some Sith became so powerful that they could create life"). Whether he was refering to the clone army or Anakin, can now be debated. But whatever, I choose to think of the PT as just mindless popcorn now. Midowhateveyacallems are just a distraction like Jar Jar.

[Sven1976]

At the risk of being off-topic, I saw the first trailer for Phantom Menace 3D today and must say that it looks very, very pretty.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Jay444

I choose to think of the PT as just mindless popcorn now. Midowhateveyacallems are just a distraction like Jar Jar.

I see all movies in this fashion none of them have any effect in my life, family and friends do that for me.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Sven1976

At the risk of being off-topic, I saw the first trailer for Phantom Menace 3D today and must say that it looks very, very pretty.

Really? Where did you see it? Was it attached as a trailer to a new movie?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

So, why did it HAVE to be Luke to face Vader? Why didn't Yoda and Obi Wan recruit and train other Jedi in secret? Why couldn't Han be trained in the Jedi-arts too? Why is Luke so sensitive to the force without having any training - similar to Anakin in Episode I? I would say the midichlorians are even more important to understanding the OT than they are to the prequels...

I know that you supposedly have me on "ignore", so I don't anticipate a response from you, but for the sake of the overall conversation and anyone who cares to read and maybe reply...


The simply phrase as expressed in the OT that explains everything that we need to know is that "the force runs strong in [Luke's] family". End of story. No futher explanation is or was ever needed.

Besides, your post here seems to imply that the midichlorians are a biological component that specifically gives people the ability to use the force. But if I recall correctly (and please correct me if I am wrong on this) several people (who tend to be pro-PT I might add) have made the arguement that the midichlorians, themselves, are not specifically what gives someone the power to use the force, but rather that the midichlorians are more or less attracted to people who are strong with the force, or something akin to that. I guess kind of like how flies are attracted to stinking, rotting garbage.


If we go with the former explanation... that the midichlorians are the what more or less gives people to ability to use the force... then it really brings into question the logic of why Jedi are discouraged from marrying and having kids. Yes, I understand that there are dangers with having emotional attachments to people and that can comprimise a Jedi's judgement and in extreme cases lead them to the dark side, but at the same time if there is a biological component and the best "force babies" come from those who are already strong with the force, then wouldn't it make sense to have some kind of exception to this rule?

As it is, even if we ignore the whole midichlorian issue completely, IMO the PT already kind of contradicts a big part of the "heart" of the OT in that there is a lot of emphasis on the force being strong in Luke's family (and at no point in the OT are we ever told that the Jedi were largely discouraged from having families... we only know that Yoda and Obi Wan are living like hermits largely because they went into hiding when the Jedi were being hunted down), only for the PT to make having a family this largely discouraged thing.


And if we go with the latter explantion that the midichlorians are just attracted to or tend to be plentiful in those who are strong with the force (but are not actually the source of the force), then they really only work at a means by which to measure the force down to a specific number/volume. But since Jedi can already detect others who are strong with the force, the only explanation that we would need in this scenario is that Qui Gon has never sensed the force being as strong with any other being that he has encountered as he has with Anakin. Simple and to the point. There is no need for the midichlorians to be mentioned at all if this is how they work. They are just a pointless device that weren't very well explained that just adds confusion to something that already had a simple, understandable explanation.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

I see all movies in this fashion none of them have any effect in my life, family and friends do that for me.

I think you are taking things to an extreme...lol, wasn't referring to impacting your life, but making you think. But some movies are more thoughtful than others (i.e. 2001, Shawshank Redemption, Pi, Momento, 8 and 1/2, Green Mile, so on and so forth). Star Wars, is not in that league no matter how deeply some fans read into them.

OT was just good fun popcorn films that seeked to entertain. The force was a mystic power, nothing more. The PT tried to expand on these ideas, but was half baked imo. Ideas/subplots would be introduced and then quickly abondoned with no resolution/explanation. I.E. Syo-fo-dias, Midiblahblahblahs, Immaculate Conception, the Separatists are leaving the Republic but for what reason exactly? So on and so forth.

I am not saying the OT is 'deep intellectual stuff' here, but it was straight forward storytelling that was entertaining. The PT, too often, disregaurded ideas it introduced which made it lose momentum it would build up.

A Jedi master creates a clone army without the Jedi Order or Republic knowing? Okay! Awesome! Lets find out more about that.... and... nothing. Also, how the hell did Yoda know Palpatine's name is Darth Sideous in ROTS without diving more into the Syfodias plot? When you have gapping plot holes like this, it hurts the film and takes you out of the enjoyment is all I am saying. The PT tried to be more than it was capable of being I think.

[Sven1976]

Originally Posted by Jay444

Really? Where did you see it? Was it attached as a trailer to a new movie?

Upload to our cinema. Surprised I haven't heard anyone about it.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Jay444

I think you are taking things to an extreme...lol, wasn't referring to impacting your life, but making you think. But some movies are more thoughtful than others (i.e. 2001, Shawshank Redemption, Pi, Momento, 8 and 1/2, Green Mile, so on and so forth). Star Wars, is not in that league no matter how deeply some fans read into them.

OT was just good fun popcorn films that seeked to entertain. The force was a mystic power, nothing more. The PT tried to expand on these ideas, but was half baked imo. Ideas/subplots would be introduced and then quickly abondoned with no resolution/explanation. I.E. Syo-fo-dias, Midiblahblahblahs, Immaculate Conception, the Separatists are leaving the Republic but for what reason exactly? So on and so forth.

I am not saying the OT is 'deep intellectual stuff' here, but it was straight forward storytelling that was entertaining. The PT, too often, disregaurded ideas it introduced which made it lose momentum it would build up.

A Jedi master creates a clone army without the Jedi Order or Republic knowing? Okay! Awesome! Lets find out more about that.... and... nothing. Also, how the hell did Yoda know Palpatine's name is Darth Sideous in ROTS without diving more into the Syfodias plot? When you have gapping plot holes like this, it hurts the film and takes you out of the enjoyment is all I am saying. The PT tried to be more than it was capable of being I think.

Yes, the change my life bit is a bit extreme, I will give you that.

I see the point you are making I am just a bit different in the way I see movies. For me movies are entertainement, nothing more and nothing less. Some do it better then others. Some are pure gold fun and entertainement, while others are well, shall we say alright but that's about it and others still are just plain boring for me.

Even if you pick a movie like Saving Private Ryan, for me it's still a movie. Sure a extremely well done movie and I would never dare (as much as I like Star Wars) make the claim the Star Wars is superior. That being said, it's still nothing but a movie. The fact that I saw it does not come close to explain to me what it was like to be on that beach that June morning. None of us will ever know what it's like and we never will either. Only the men who were on those beaches that morning trying to kill each other will ever know what it was really like and God bless their souls and make it I or any of my children ever have to know what it was like. Some movies are more important then others of course but they are still nothing but entertainement. Saving Private Ryan, it's important to be made for historic purpose (even if I would recommend kids to actually pick a a history book rather then watch a movie about it). That is why I never had problems with the prequels, the originals were not mystic to me, I wasn't looking or trying to understand what The Force was, they were just movies. So when I look at the prequels, I see the same silly stuff that were in the originals, the little kid moments that so many people claim are not in the originals. I see them because I always saw them, because the first 3 Star Wars movies were nothing but movies, fun and I enjoy them but still nothing but movies. Plus I don't see plot holes in the prequels, again because like in the originals I did not need to have everything explain or mention or said. I did not need to have a serious explanation why in the world Tarkin can just out of nowhere blow up an entire planet with not a single person going "excuse me governor but what legal rights have we for doing this? Because we captured Princess Leia with a rebel ship?" Hmmm so if we follow this logic, should the USA just nuke Saudi Arabia since Bin Ladden came from there? Of course not, because Star Wars was just a movie and blowing up a planet with a giant space station is a cool thing to do no matter how silly it actually is if you try to apply reality to it

I think people just try way to hard with movies sometimes but that's just me...everyone is free to do as they please if it's making them happy.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

And if we go with the latter explantion that the midichlorians are just attracted to or tend to be plentiful in those who are strong with the force (but are not actually the source of the force), then they really only work at a means by which to measure the force down to a specific number/volume. But since Jedi can already detect others who are strong with the force, the only explanation that we would need in this scenario is that Qui Gon has never sensed the force being as strong with any other being that he has encountered as he has with Anakin. Simple and to the point. There is no need for the midichlorians to be mentioned at all if this is how they work. They are just a pointless device that weren't very well explained that just adds confusion to something that already had a simple, understandable explanation.

You're confused about what they are and what they meant and making inferences that aren't there. Thus your conclusions are as flawed as your logic in that spurious reasoning.

Anakin had more midichlorians than any other Jedi, even Yoda. He clearly wasn't stronger in the Force than Yoda. Obi-Wan outright asks what it means and Qui-Gon admits he doesn't know. This leads to his conjecture that Anakin is the Chosen One. It MUST be disputable for Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council to reject the idea of training him. If it was clear and obvious and indisputable, then they'd be fools to NOT train him.