Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Indyjones]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

If it's possible (I'm not an expert on CGI), if they still have the base model for Episode 1 Jabba stored in a computer somewhere in a form that can still be manipulated, I would love for them to basically "drop" that model into 'A New Hope' and animate it based on the movements of the 2004 version (with certain things corrected, i.e. the animation of the laugh).

I believe they did use the TPM Jabba model for the 2004 ANH.

[STARSCREAM]

Originally Posted by Indyjones

I believe they did use the TPM Jabba model for the 2004 ANH.

This is correct.

[peterraes]

what a bummer the blu ray announcement...i was and still am depressed with what Lucas said there..."the cost is verry high to restore the original etc..."seriously....the movies that made him a milliionaire...they dont deserve the best possible restoration?
i saw all the originals at the time of release and love them the way they are,unaltered...
i just cant live with the fact that he altered so much in them,sheer butchery of a piece of history,let's be honest...who loves the fact he cut out the "spirit" of the original actor in "Return...to put in the "new...OMG!
And give me the "puppet" jabba ....instead of the digital one annyday,that's just a few things i mention here...but do have a incredible impact on the whole viewing experience.
furthermore i find the new episodes not worth buying,i just dont like em,the "ships" now are "so clean",a real bonus in the original trilogy,they look worn,dirty,used and far more believing,i could go on about all this but it boils down to 1 thing for me...he will not have a sale from this fan i'm afraid....1080P quality or not,ill stick to the dvd box set containing the non anamorphic originals at a mere 360 lines resolution...and rely mostly on superb upscaling to give it "a decent viewing" on my 90" diagonal screen,it does soften it a bit,but its not the end of the world,epson tw 5500 frame inter..on "1",super resolution on "1"....thanks George Lucas for letting down the people that made you rich and for ruining your own legacy!
A verry depressed fan,Peter

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Indyjones

I believe they did use the TPM Jabba model for the 2004 ANH.

Originally Posted by STARSCREAM

This is correct.

Now, just to clarify, are you saying that they actually did what I suggested above, and actually used the pre-existing computerized Jabba from TPM and remanilpulated it for ANH.... OR did they more-or-less build the ANH model from scratch using the TPM version as a model to base it on?

Because of those two general possibilities, I'm not convinced that the first one is true. In fact, just over the weekend I put both movies into a 5-disc DVD player that I have and jumped back and forth between both movies to compare them. And to me, the TPM Jabba's animation looks much better and more convincing as a living being as the 2004 ANH DVD Jabba does. In some ways its subtle and in other ways its more obvious (IMO), but overall the ANH Jabba just looks more "cheap" ang more CGI-ish than the TPM Jabba does (I'm not saying that TPM Jabba doesn't look like he was made using CGI... because he does... but the end result is more convincing and realistic, IMO).

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by peterraes

what a bummer the blu ray announcement...i was and still am depressed with what Lucas said there..."the cost is verry high to restore the original etc..."seriously....the movies that made him a milliionaire...they dont deserve the best possible restoration?
i saw all the originals at the time of release and love them the way they are,unaltered...
i just cant live with the fact that he altered so much in them,sheer butchery of a piece of history,let's be honest...who loves the fact he cut out the "spirit" of the original actor in "Return...to put in the "new...OMG!
And give me the "puppet" jabba ....instead of the digital one annyday,that's just a few things i mention here...but do have a incredible impact on the whole viewing experience.
furthermore i find the new episodes not worth buying,i just dont like em,the "ships" now are "so clean",a real bonus in the original trilogy,they look worn,dirty,used and far more believing,i could go on about all this but it boils down to 1 thing for me...he will not have a sale from this fan i'm afraid....1080P quality or not,ill stick to the dvd box set containing the non anamorphic originals at a mere 360 lines resolution...and rely mostly on superb upscaling to give it "a decent viewing" on my 90" diagonal screen,it does soften it a bit,but its not the end of the world,epson tw 5500 frame inter..on "1",super resolution on "1"....thanks George Lucas for letting down the people that made you rich and for ruining your own legacy!
A verry depressed fan,Peter

Peter, please don't be depressed about this. It's a movie saga.

[AintNoSin]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Now, just to clarify, are you saying that they actually did what I suggested above, and actually used the pre-existing computerized Jabba from TPM and remanilpulated it for ANH.... OR did they more-or-less build the ANH model from scratch using the TPM version as a model to base it on?

The Special Edition of ANH was released two years before TPM, so if anything, TPM used a version of the ANH Jabba, subtly altered to look younger.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by AintNoSin

The Special Edition of ANH was released two years before TPM, so if anything, TPM used a version of the ANH Jabba, subtly altered to look younger.

*FACEPALM*...

You obviously don't know your history of the changes to ANH (not that I am an inside-out expert on them by any means, but this was one of the most obvious changes to occur between the 1997 versions and the 2004 versions).

They completely redid the CGI for Jabba for the 2004 DVD release of ANH. He looks completely different than he did in the "Special Edition" Theatrical re-release and subsequent VHS relase of ANH in 1997. TPM came out in 1999, inbetween these two revisions of Jabba in ANH. And while the 2004 ANH Jabba is a big improvement compared to the 1997 version, he still doesn't look nearly as good as Jabba did in TPM in my opinion.

I found some video links...

1997 ANH Jabba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eCg0...layer_embedded


2004 ANH DVD Jabba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nbE8...layer_embedded


1999 TPM Jabba (skip to the end of the video to see him):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHY-Q...layer_embedded


Now, looking at those, I can see where it could be argued that the 2004 version was based on the 1999 version, but it really doesn't seem to be that they took the actual computer-generated Jabba from '99 and just dropped it into ANH. Or.. if they did.. the person who did the actual animating of him for 2004 ANH didn't do as good of a job as whoever did so for TPM. If you look at the mouth of these two versions when he talks, the TPM version has more complexity in the mouth movements and it looks more real and natural. In 2004 ANH, the mouth in general movement doesn't look as detailed or real (not that it's terrible overall, just that by comparison it doesn't look nearly as good), and when he laughs at one point, his mouth seems to stretch and grow in a very unnatural CGI-ish looking way (which IMO does look terrible).

So, I HOPE to see some additional improvements made on Jabba for the Blu-Ray edition.

[Indyjones]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

*FACEPALM*...

You obviously don't know your history of the changes to ANH (not that I am an inside-out expert on them by any means, but this was one of the most obvious changes to occur between the 1997 versions and the 2004 versions).

They completely redid the CGI for Jabba for the 2004 DVD release of ANH. He looks completely different than he did in the "Special Edition" Theatrical re-release and subsequent VHS relase of ANH in 1997. TPM came out in 1999, inbetween these two revisions of Jabba in ANH. And while the 2004 ANH Jabba is a big improvement compared to the 1997 version, he still doesn't look nearly as good as Jabba did in TPM in my opinion.

I found some video links...

1997 ANH Jabba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eCg0...layer_embedded


2004 ANH DVD Jabba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nbE8...layer_embedded


1999 TPM Jabba (skip to the end of the video to see him):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHY-Q...layer_embedded


Now, looking at those, I can see where it could be argued that the 2004 version was based on the 1999 version, but it really doesn't seem to be that they took the actual computer-generated Jabba from '99 and just dropped it into ANH. Or.. if they did.. the person who did the actual animating of him for 2004 ANH didn't do as good of a job as whoever did so for TPM. If you look at the mouth of these two versions when he talks, the TPM version has more complexity in the mouth movements and it looks more real and natural. In 2004 ANH, the mouth in general movement doesn't look as detailed or real (not that it's terrible overall, just that by comparison it doesn't look nearly as good), and when he laughs at one point, his mouth seems to stretch and grow in a very unnatural CGI-ish looking way (which IMO does look terrible).

So, I HOPE to see some additional improvements made on Jabba for the Blu-Ray edition.

According to the SW DVD review at The Bits, it's the TPM Jabba model that was used for the 2004 release. I don't know why look different (they look relatively the same to me), but one possible explaination is that there just wasn't enough time given to work on these, which looks pretty obvious to me, mostly on the f/x side of things. As mentioned before, Sansweet stated that they've been working on the blu's for yrs, so hopefully they took their time and polished them up this time around - consistently.

[Chiyo_chichi]

If you open both videos side by side you can definitely see they're the same model. Though the lighting and texturing is a bit lighter in TPM, which would explain the different look.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Chiyo_chichi

If you open both videos side by side you can definitely see they're the same model. Though the lighting and texturing is a bit lighter in TPM, which would explain the different look.

Well, I just did that, and I see what you mean by them being the same model. But none the less, there's still something that (at least to me) seems "off" about ANH Jabba's animation. Even if someone was 'manipulating' the same model, I think they did do as good of a job as whoever animated Jabba in TPM.

It may have something to do with his coloring. I never liked how dark his coloring is in that version. But that may have been the result of the darkening/color "correcting" (and I use the word "correcting" loosely) that was done for that DVD release (that resulted in a lot of crushed blacks, etc).

Maybe it is just the coloring that is making him not look right to me, and maybe he would look better to me if he were more lightly colored like he is in TPM. I just hope this overall coloring issue is fixed for the Blu-Ray release.

[Indyjones]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Well, I just did that, and I see what you mean by them being the same model. But none the less, there's still something that (at least to me) seems "off" about ANH Jabba's animation. Even if someone was 'manipulating' the same model, I think they did do as good of a job as whoever animated Jabba in TPM.

It may have something to do with his coloring. I never liked how dark his coloring is in that version. But that may have been the result of the darkening/color "correcting" (and I use the word "correcting" loosely) that was done for that DVD release (that resulted in a lot of crushed blacks, etc).

Maybe it is just the coloring that is making him not look right to me, and maybe he would look better to me if he were more lightly colored like he is in TPM. I just hope this overall coloring issue is fixed for the Blu-Ray release.

You also have to consider that Jabba is outdoors in the sun in TPM and is indoors in the ANH, so that could be playing a part in the color/texture as well.

[supersonic395]

Originally Posted by peterraes

the "ships" now are "so clean",a real bonus in the original trilogy,they look worn,dirty,used and far more believing

But in the prequels, they don't have to continously run and hide from the Empire....they have access to allow for good maintenance on their ships.

In the original trilogy, they don't have access to proper "garages/workshops", they mostly have to fix the ships themselves, hence the mediocre/poor maintenance and they are certainly not going to clean the ships. The Empire ships look clean though.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

So, here's a question that I have that has come up as a result of the Prequels adding what (to me) was a very unexpected and somewhat contradictory lair to things. (Mind you, I don't have a great knowledge of "EU", so if some official explanation of this has been revealed somewhere outside of the movies, I haven't seen it/read it).

In the Original Trilogy (all versions, the changes in the films later on don't change this), Leia is a Princess. Within the movie, no real explanation was ever given as to what makes her a "Princess," but I used to always think of it as being similar to our own forms of "Royalty" here on Earth, where people are essentially born into Royalty and are a prince or princess and become a King or Queen down the road due to their heritage (and typically people of Royalty are rather rich).

Other things stated in the movies seem to support this (at least IMO they do). Han refers to Leia using terms like "Your Worshipfulness", and in A New Hope, Luke talks Han into helping rescue her in the first place by saying that since she is a Princess she is rich and he would likely be well rewarded for his efforts.



But then, in the Prequels, the Queen is an elected position. Now, while that comes with a certain level of presteige and probably pays well, it is still a limited time thing (with what seems to be more similarities to being elected President of the United States than with real traditional Royalty situations). And while it may pay well, I wouldn't think that the person in power would have the same kind of extreme wealth that we traditionally associate with Royalty and that Luke seems to suggest the Princess would have access to.

Now, I realize (or at least assume) that regardless of this, Leia being a "Princess" likely has little or nothing to do with the fact that Padme was a Queen at one point, in part because of the Queen being an elected position, and in part because Leia is adopted by Bale Organa and his wife, so any "royal" attachments would be to them.

But none the less, it still raises some questions... Is Leia being a Princess in some way or another either some kind of elected position in-and-of itself? Or is her being a Princess in some way based on one or both of her adoptive parents being some kind of "elected" Royalty?

Or for that matter, does Royalty work differently on different planets, in some cases not being based on limited-term elections? Perhaps on Naboo, the Queen is a temporary elected position that someone can hold, but perhaps on Alderan (sp?) they have more traditional Royalty.


If anyone has answers to this, I'd greatly appreciate it, because this really doesn't add up to me.

I honestly wonder if Lucas intended the royalty to be based on elections when he actually made the original trilogy, or if the whole election concept was something he thought up when writing the prequels and didn't really have in mind when making the OT.

This is just one of several things that drive me nuts about the way the prequels connect to the original films. There's a lot of these kinds of details that can probably be explained in some manner so that they make sense and aren't necessarily contradictory, but the "road" that connects them is more like a "rough, gravel road" rather than the "smooth road" that could have been and that would make for a better overall story.

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

No, not really, because by saying what he did to Anakin, Obi-Wan literally turns himself and all the Jedi into hypocrites, because they have sworn to the absolute duty of defending peace and fighting the Sith.

By your reasoning, then, Jesus Christ was the worst of any who ever lived...because He said exactly that, and more to the same effect.

Just because not everyone obeys and/or observes a certain idea or truth, that doesn't make it "gray" or "void". Morals, in and of themselves, are absolute; what changes are our responses to that.

This is similar to the assumtion by some fans that Vader should have known right away that Luke was his son, since his name was Luke Skywalker. Well, in the many galaxies of SW there are countless Skywalkers, just as there are countless people with the same last name here on this earth.

Of course, there could be different ways for becoming a queen on even a single planet, as on earth, so why should there only be one way in the enitre universe.
I personally think you have a little too much free time to worry about this stuff, but hey, if it makes you happy!?

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Luke wouldn't recognize any image of Anakin other than a scarred old zombie. However, nobody would recognize Sebastian "Anakin" Shaw there, because he never looked like that at any time in his life. Yoda and Obi-Wan would look over and say "who the hell is this impostor"?

Spot on!

Originally Posted by Chiyo_chichi

Exactly. Besides, let's be real....who else could the ghost be Whether Luke recognizes Vader's youth or not, there should be little doubt who the third jedi ghost is.

Right too.

[#Darren]

George Lucas not greedy?

Sue Jedi Mind company, Lucas will
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/odd/781...ny-lucas-will/

Note to all potential clone armies: LucasFilm holds trademarks on Jedi Knight, Jedi Power Battles and Jedi Training Academy, but not directly on Jedi Mind and other affiliated marks.

Nevertheless, it claims dominion over "all characteristics associated with the Jedi knights not memorialised in a registered trademark, including Jedi robes, the lightsabre weapon, the power to levitate objects, a telepathic oneness with other Jedi and the universe, and the ability to shoot energy beams called 'force lightning' from the fingertips."

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by JasonR

OK, the same half dozen posters....you know who are.

This thread is for the Blu-ray release. If I needed to find any relevant information in this thread concerning it, do you think I would look here? Probably not, this is a cluster at best.

If you want to talk Star Wars this vs. Star Wars that issues, dig up a thread in movies. As I am sure there is one, if not...make one. Most everything discussed is non release related.

Looks like this post was forgotten in about two pages.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Indyjones

You also have to consider that Jabba is outdoors in the sun in TPM and is indoors in the ANH, so that could be playing a part in the color/texture as well.

I see your point, but I really think it has more to do with the "color correcting" that they did on the Original Trilogy for DVD. Even if not in direct sunlight, he shouldn't end up with a completely different, darker color pallete. Check out this Youtube video that compares the non-color-corrected version to the 2004 version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWRs0...feature=search

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Of course, there could be different ways for becoming a queen on even a single planet, as on earth, so why should there only be one way in the enitre universe.
I personally think you have a little too much free time to worry about this stuff, but hey, if it makes you happy!?

It's not a matter of having "too much free time", it's just something that I happened to notice and has bugged me since.

The reason why I don't feel that the explanation of "different planets have different governments) holds up very well as an argument is two fold... for one, typically you don't have the same terms being used (like Queen or Princess) to mean completely different things for different systems of government. Typically different systems of government have their own unique terms for their leaders, etc. I don't see why we should just "assume" otherwise for these films.

Secondly, all of these different planets, to some extent or another, seem to be working together under a single government via the galactic senate. That would be like there being one big world senate or union of some type here on Earth that all governments of different countries are part of and cooperate with... but in reality we have nothing like that. So, in Star Wars, since they are (to some extent) operating under one system of government (AND considering that we know that Leia's adoptive father was a senator and not someone of default 'Royal' status), it stands to reason that their isn't a completely different system on her planet.

I don't think Lucas put enough thought into this to have each planet have their own unique government. Heck, the planets in his movies don't even have diverse ecosystems. It's always a "desert planet" or a "forest moon" or a "lava planet". There never seems to be a wide variety of ecosystems on a single planet. So with that being the case, I don't see why I should just assume that there is some kind of automatic extreme diversity in the governments of the planets that make up the senate.

And ultimately my point boils down to this... whether or not they are two different systems of government, the whole thing could have been cleared up and explained with a some very brief dialog.

Now, I am only posting this since this was a reply to my previous post. But I am trying to stay more on track in this thread with discussing the Blu-Ray release, so it's probably best if we don't debate this further here in this thread.

[rexcrk]

I'm very excited to hear about the saga on Blu-ray! Too bad we have to wait over a year

I just hope they don't screw up the colors and everything. Let's make this a definitive set, Lucasfilm!

And I wish they'd give us at least an anamorphic widescreen version of the original versions of the original trilogy! I don't need a completely digitally restored version, just as long as it's not a little box on my HD TV lol.

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

I personally think you have a little too much free time to worry about this stuff, but hey, if it makes you happy!?

I think all of us who participate in this thread have a little too much free time...lol! But, plenty of time to waste until the blu is released.

I wonder if we will be treated to a new THX intro with the release?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

I think all of us who participate in this thread have a little too much free time...lol! But, plenty of time to waste until the blu is released.

I wonder if we will be treated to a new THX intro with the release?

Lucas will probably introduce some kind of new "Super THX" which will cause anyone watching the movie with even the lowest level of audible volume to go def!

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

I think all of us who participate in this thread have a little too much free time...lol! But, plenty of time to waste until the blu is released.

I wonder if we will be treated to a new THX intro with the release?

That'd be awesome! A THX with a SW related theme going on, although I also really liked the one with the cow herd.

How many THX trailers have been made so far??

A new ultimate THX trailer would definitely be great, but I think we can bet on getting one before each Episode. That's pretty much a given.