Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[balthazar_bee]

Originally Posted by JavaJulien

This is going to be blasphemy on my end, but I feel that this extends to Episode IV as well.

Hardly blasphemy, but I can't agree.

If anything, I'd say the characters in 4 the opposite of "stiff, cardboard, awkward, and lacking personality."

But how can such a discussion move forward? Ultimately we'll just a agree to disagree, but maybe I can explain my position.

I'd suggest that four fundamental factors promoted superior characterization in episode IV.

1. Script. The banter is decidedly un-Lucaslike, and his dynamic script-polishing duo did a wonderful job. And let's be honest: How much of American Graffiti's brilliance do we likewise owe to these uncredited two?

2. Casting. I think this point speaks for itself. Granted, there are some terrific actors in the prequels, and a handful of intriguing performances, but they're so...uninspired and "calculated"? What actor lets loose in the entire prequel saga the way Ford does howling in pursuit of a platoon of storm troopers?

3. The nature of the characters themselves. Han Solo is brash and swaggering. Leia is spunky and sexy. Luke's earnestness is refreshing (when he's not whining). Darth Vader is terrifying, yet has a certain villainous charisma. Obi-Wan seems genuinely wise. The stodgy, British "Empire" is evil in a bureaucratic way that is instantly relatable. These variations on the familiar archetypes haven't yet become stale. Episode IV is a starting point. It's fresh, new and exciting. (Five films later, what do characters in this universe have to talk about? I'm more forgiving of the "midiclorians" business than many others, because I understand what it must have been like for Lucas to sit down to write Episode I. He's got to bring something new to the table. It can't just be episode IV all over again.)

4. The inifinite nature of the CG universes Lucas created for the prequels prompt someone with his kind of personality to go further further further. More creatures, more planets, more! With the practical effects in episode IV, and his limited budget, he had to stay focused on telling the story efficiently. He couldn't afford to get side-tracked. Tell the story with the materials you have and hope to hell you turn a profit and earn the right to tell more stories.

Now his success is assured indefinitely. He can take the time to obsess over every aspect of design, the rather unnecessary little detail that uber-fans might've cared about back when the original trilogy inspired passion.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by balthazar_bee

2. Casting. I think this point speaks for itself. Granted, there are some terrific actors in the prequels, and a handful of intriguing performances, but they're so...uninspired and "calculated"? What actor lets loose in the entire prequel saga the way Ford does howling in pursuit of a platoon of storm troopers?

While I agree almost entirely with your post, I will give props to Ian McDiarmid in the prequel trilogy. He is the one actor in the films who I think is able to "let loose," mostly in Episode III. Although I think that film had many awkward moments with him that were unintentionally funny, I was really into his seeing him transform from civil political leader to cackling evil madman by the end of the movie.

[Moviefan2k4]

With regard to casting, I remember when Lucas said that deciding who would play Anakin finally came down to Hayden Christensen and Colin Hanks. It could've been interesting to see what Colin did with it, but I still like Hayden's performances. People hate on the prequels like crazy, but I think most do it because they've deified the OT. I grew up with the originals as a kid, and I loved all of the newer ones. There's minor things I would've done differently, but they make up a very small percentage.

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

With regard to casting, I remember when Lucas said that deciding who would play Anakin finally came down to Hayden Christensen and Colin Hanks. It could've been interesting to see what Colin did with it, but I still like Hayden's performances. People hate on the prequels like crazy, but I think most do it because they've deified the OT. I grew up with the originals as a kid, and I loved all of the newer ones. There's minor things I would've done differently, but they make up a very small percentage.

Just did a google image search of colin hanks. Definitely not an intimidating looking guy, but probably better in the acting department.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

With regard to casting, I remember when Lucas said that deciding who would play Anakin finally came down to Hayden Christensen and Colin Hanks. It could've been interesting to see what Colin did with it, but I still like Hayden's performances. People hate on the prequels like crazy, but I think most do it because they've deified the OT. I grew up with the originals as a kid, and I loved all of the newer ones. There's minor things I would've done differently, but they make up a very small percentage.

I don't think Hayden is a terrible actor (he's been in some good stuff like Shattered Glass), but his acting, particularly in Episode II, I thought was horrendous. I don't think I'm deifying the originals by saying that by and large, the acting and lines were nowhere near the atrocious levels that make up a large portion of the prequel films.

But I don't really blame Hayden for that at all. You say it would be interesting what Colin would do with the role, but that is assuming that Lucas gives his actors any creativity or leeway in their performances, when I believe that he does not. And I think that was a big factor to why the performances suffer so much in those films.

[42041]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

From The Dark Knight Rises thread (credit to the original poster):



Now a lot of the prequel-haters here just luuuuves to quote the Plinkett reviews because it fits in with their view that Lucas can't tell good stories anymore. The reviewer in this link feels the same way about Christopher Nolan and his new film. He raises several legit points...but guess what? I still enjoyed the movie (TDKR).

It proves that many, many films would not stand up to the heavy scrutiny. Yet Nolan is celebrated in many circles and Lucas damned. Will some of the members here change their minds? Probably not.

Good lord, what a bunch of whiny drivel that review is
The Plinkett reviews contain some salient criticisms but they are first and foremost comedy, and the exhaustive nitpicking is played for laughs at the expense of the sort of individuals that would write a review like that.

[Diesel]

Seeing as we are about a month away from the year anniversary of the blu-ray release and there's still no announcement of individual releases...I guess they won't come any time soon

I was counting on Lucas milking the hell out of Star Wars again and releasing as many versions as possible so that I could buy Revenge of the Sith on its own.


They'll probably do the same with Indiana Jones as well

[Indyjones]

Originally Posted by balthazar_bee

1. Script. The banter is decidedly un-Lucaslike, and his dynamic script-polishing duo did a wonderful job. And let's be honest: How much of American Graffiti's brilliance do we likewise owe to these uncredited two?

Lucas gets pummeled for his scriptwriting, particularly with the PT, and rightfully so. But didn't he actually 'try' to get compitent help writing the PT? If I remember right, Lucas did approach Kasden, and was shot down. I think Darabont agreed to at one point, but backed out. I don't know if Katz and Huyck, who Balthazar is referring to, were approached. However, I do believe Carrie Fisher doctored TPM.

Either no one wanted to write the PT, or couldn't do it. Maybe it was at this point, that Lucas just decided to tackle it on his own, fearing, that outside of his small circle of writing friends, he couldn't trust anyone else.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

I don't think Hayden is a terrible actor (he's been in some good stuff like Shattered Glass), but his acting, particularly in Episode II, I thought was horrendous. I don't think I'm deifying the originals by saying that by and large, the acting and lines were nowhere near the atrocious levels that make up a large portion of the prequel films.

I disagree, I think the acting and writing is diabolical in the OT, aside from the old-stagers like Guinness and Cushing, who could read out the phone book and make it sound like Shakespeare. But, as I said before, it's the charisma and energy of characters like Han and Leia that differentiate the OT from the PT. Luke is a whiny little shit just like his old man, though.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by 42041

Good lord, what a bunch of whiny drivel that review is
The Plinkett reviews contain some salient criticisms but they are first and foremost comedy, and the exhaustive nitpicking is played for laughs at the expense of the sort of individuals that would write a review like that.

Kinda annoying when someone takes a movie you like and nitpicks it to shreds, eh?

Now imagine a cadre of people threadbombing the TDKR thread with the same complaints over and over again, telling everyone how much they hate the movie (making you feel bad in liking it in the first place), calling Nolan a hack (etc), and linking to this review over and over again to support their POV...

[NYorker]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

I don't think Hayden is a terrible actor (he's been in some good stuff like Shattered Glass), but his acting, particularly in Episode II, I thought was horrendous. I don't think I'm deifying the originals by saying that by and large, the acting and lines were nowhere near the atrocious levels that make up a large portion of the prequel films.

But I don't really blame Hayden for that at all. You say it would be interesting what Colin would do with the role, but that is assuming that Lucas gives his actors any creativity or leeway in their performances, when I believe that he does not. And I think that was a big factor to why the performances suffer so much in those films.

I agree, I think it's a lot more Lucas's wishes and instructions - and ludicrous dialogue - that made Hayden look worse than he actually is.

[Rich1983]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Kinda annoying when someone takes a movie you like and nitpicks it to shreds, eh?

Now imagine a cadre of people threadbombing the TDKR thread with the same complaints over and over again, telling everyone how much they hate the movie (making you feel bad in liking it in the first place), calling Nolan a hack (etc), and linking to this review over and over again to support their POV...

That wouldn't bother me one bit because honestly, anyone who trash talks any of Nolan's Batman masterpieces is a full on idiot and not worth my reading their reviews nor are they worth my emotional investment (not even my anger).

Don't let them get you down. They are just plain wrong.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Indyjones

Lucas gets pummeled for his scriptwriting, particularly with the PT, and rightfully so. But didn't he actually 'try' to get compitent help writing the PT? If I remember right, Lucas did approach Kasden, and was shot down. I think Darabont agreed to at one point, but backed out. I don't know if Katz and Huyck, who Balthazar is referring to, were approached. However, I do believe Carrie Fisher doctored TPM.

Either no one wanted to write the PT, or couldn't do it. Maybe it was at this point, that Lucas just decided to tackle it on his own, fearing, that outside of his small circle of writing friends, he couldn't trust anyone else.

Jonathan Hales helped with the screenplay for "Attack of the Clones".

[al cos.]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Now imagine a cadre of people threadbombing the TDKR thread with the same complaints over and over again, telling everyone how much they hate the movie (making you feel bad in liking it in the first place)

Where's my violin?

[JayFank]

Hey, you guys can take up for Lucas all you want. I ignore and pretend the prequels do not even exist, and unfortunately, I have to do the same for the original trilogy because he decided to add stuff that did not need to be included 25 years later, and has continually added more irrelevant junk to the movies to make them worse a long the way. So until George decides to ante up and release the original trilogy correctly, then he won't see anything from me.

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by Rich1983

That wouldn't bother me one bit because honestly, anyone who trash talks any of Nolan's Batman masterpieces is a full on idiot and not worth my reading their reviews nor are they worth my emotional investment (not even my anger).

Don't let them get you down. They are just plain wrong.

Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't make them wrong ...

Only a Sith deals in absolutes

[42041]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Kinda annoying when someone takes a movie you like and nitpicks it to shreds, eh?

Now imagine a cadre of people threadbombing the TDKR thread with the same complaints over and over again, telling everyone how much they hate the movie (making you feel bad in liking it in the first place), calling Nolan a hack (etc), and linking to this review over and over again to support their POV...

Not really, if I like a movie, someone on the internet isn't going to convince me otherwise. I think Revenge of the Sith is a pretty good movie. The RLM review is a well-done, funny riff on it. That TDKR review is the sort of shrill, moronic 14-year-old fanboy screeching you might find on the IMDB forums, so devoid of insight or intelligence you want to spare your brain cells the torture of having to read it.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Ryan0503

Only a Sith deals in absolutes

People have taken that line and ran with it, but it still doesn't make any sense. First, its self-defeating, like saying "My parents had no kids that lived". Second, its hypocritical, because the Jedi are determined to bring absolute justice against the Sith.

[TheZoof]

Brilliant

Originally Posted by PrivatePixel

After 2000 pages and 40,000+ posts on the subject, is there anything new left to be discussed?

I thought this might be a nice diversion, only because the Blu-ray edition was mentioned in the lyrics (I'm sure there are thousands of parodies on the subject, but this is one of the better ones and a more contemporary take)

'The Star Wars That I Used To Know' - Gotye parody

LYRICS

[DARTH:]
Now and then I think of when I was in power
Like choking people with the Force until they died
But then you told them all my history
And took away my masculinity
And had my character portrayed by subpar actors.

You are now addicted to an overuse of graphics
And making Greedo shoot first? Han shot first.
So when you tried to have the Force make sense
You introduced the midichlorians
And what's the deal with having me be dubbed over (Noooooooooo!)

But you didn't have to change it all.
Make 'em like they never happened and the fans are nothing
I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a Bantha and that feels so rough
No you didn't have to make them blow
Have your friends direct your movies and they'll turn out better.
You think that you don't need them though
What happened to the Star Wars that I used to know

What happened to the Star Wars that I used to know
What happened to the Star Wars that I used to know

[GEORGE LUCAS:]
Now and then I think of all the times I screwed fans over.
I had them believing that the first three films were really done.
But Star Wars will be done my way
I don't care what you have to say
I think that they should let it go
And they'll never get the Blu-Ray of the Star Wars that you used to know

[DARTH:]
You didn't have to change it all.
No more puppets, no more practical effects or nothin'
I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a wampa and that feels so cold.
No you didn't have to sell your soul
Do we really need to watch them all again in 3D?
Jar Jar was an all time low
What happened to the Star Wars that I used to know

[x2]
The movies
(I used to know)
The movies
(What happened to the Star Wars that I used to know)

(I used to know)
(That I used to know)
(I used to know)
(That I used to know)

[octagon]

Originally Posted by al cos.

Where's my violin?

Now see, if it was the world's biggest violin it would be easier to keep track of.