Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

the binary sunset

The binary sunset in what is now called A New Hope has always been my favourite moment in the entire Star Wars opus. (Perhaps largely, but not entirely, due to John Williams.) For me it's a signal moment, and captures the emotional longing that I think underpins the entire story.

So, 30 or so years later, I can understand why Lucas wanted to reference that moment, but I wish he'd resisted. Like many such moments in the prequels, when you watch the films in sequence they merely leech the "later" three films of much of what made them so special.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Like many such moments in the prequels, when you watch the films in sequence they merely leech the "later" three films of much of what made them so special.

How so? The main reason a lot of moments in the prequels mirrored the originals is because Lucas wanted to honor what came before. He's said many times he views the whole story like a symphony, with each piece resembling some of the last.

[stvn1974]

I want the OOT in a good format but the only way Lucas will ever get me to even consider buying his horrible prequels and even worse special editions is if he can make Luke's lightsaber blue in A New Hope. He has had four tries and instead of fixing things that you could argue need to be fixed he adds stupid musical numbers instead.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I want the OOT in a good format but the only way Lucas will ever get me to even consider buying his horrible prequels and even worse special editions is if he can make Luke's lightsaber blue in A New Hope. He has had four tries and instead of fixing things that you could argue need to be fixed he adds stupid musical numbers instead.

The color definitely needs more consistency, but I think what really hurts that scene is how it was originally shot. Luke's sword was done with a rotating pole and reflective tape, instead of the standard post-production replacements that came later. Also, the cut when he turns it off is still obvious, so it could be the source footage. I guess only Lucas really knows.

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

The color definitely needs more consistency, but I think what really hurts that scene is how it was originally shot. Luke's sword was done with a rotating pole and reflective tape, instead of the standard post-production replacements that came later. Also, the cut when he turns it off is still obvious, so it could be the source footage. I guess only Lucas really knows.

But it is something that can easily be fixed and can't cost anymore than the CGI garbage that he keeps adding.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

But it is something that can easily be fixed and can't cost anymore than the CGI garbage that he keeps adding.

It's been fixed in more than a few fan edits yet a company made up of countless people and god knows how much money can't get it right.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

But it is something that can easily be fixed and can't cost anymore than the CGI garbage that he keeps adding.

True, and it does bug me a bit. I still love the movies though, and the Blu-Rays are a lot better than the 2004 DVDs.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Also, the cut when he turns it off is still obvious, so it could be the source footage.

It is the source footage. There is also another in TESB.

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

How so? The main reason a lot of moments in the prequels mirrored the originals is because Lucas wanted to honor what came before.

Yes, that's what I was referring to when I said, "I can understand why Lucas wanted to reference that moment", and it's a fairly understandable artefact of Lucas' own experience in making these films.

The problem is that the six-film sweep ends up falling into the gap between two different contexts. When Lucas made it, the OT was past history to him, so he made references to film that had come before. Undersatndable, and if you watch the PT with a fair degree of familiarity with the OT then the references work, but as some type of meta-references that exist outside the films. Unfortunately, from that point of view, the PT doesn't really work, because with the exception of a few set-pieces it's really just fairly lacklustre story exposition: it explains some earlier details in the story we didn't perhaps know but arguably don't really need (as demonstrated by the success of the first trilogy over the nearly-30 year gap), but it doesn't elucidate or add any particular texture or complexity to the story we already knew. It's boringly linear, so for the OT devotees it's more a process of merely going through the motions of telling the story. It's the classic problem of making a prequel that doesn't create a new context for the existing story.

But if you watch the films in their episode order, then the referencs don't really make sense, because they're referencing something that hasn't happened yet, and ... well, most of them aren't clever enough pieces of film-making to be interesting in their own right. But because the references now come first, the original incidents now become the echoes, and all it really achieves is to take the storytelling impact away from them. When Vader says, "I ... am your father!", it's nothing more now than an unwelcome surprise for Luke — it's now info we already know, and our response is more a matter of, "Yeah ... and??"

The PT doesn't allow the OT to retain the story value it once had, and it doesn't add anything of particular interest in its place. Believe me, as a big fan of the original trilogy, I wish it was otherwise.

He's said many times he views the whole story like a symphony, with each piece resembling some of the last.

Yeah ... unfortunately for George "Cry Wolf" Lucas, he's revised his "What I really intended" insights about these films so many times, often in contradiction of what he'd previously said, that he's not only blurred but completely erased the line between fact and marketing-speak. Besides, what he intended for these films and what he achieved with them aren't necessarily the same thing.

I admire Lucas for a great many things. But I think it's a pity that, in delivering the PT he finally made, in some senses he actually diminished the overall story.

[ObiTrentKenobi]

Would we all admit that if Lucas released a Bluray set that compared to the new Harry Potter set, such as multiple cuts of the films (The newest Special Editions and the Unaltered Original Trilogy) and a conglomeration of all the previously released Bluray AND DVD special features all in their highest quality possible?; he would 100% redeem himself of any childhood scourging?

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Roonan

It is the source footage. There is also another in TESB.

Where?

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Unfortunately, from that point of view, the PT doesn't really work, because with the exception of a few set-pieces it's really just fairly lackluster story exposition: it explains some earlier details in the story we didn't perhaps know but arguably don't really need (as demonstrated by the success of the first trilogy over the nearly-30 year gap), but it doesn't elucidate or add any particular texture or complexity to the story we already knew.

Well, one major addition was explaining how Palpatine came to power, and used the Jedi as pawns in his own twisted game.

But because the references now come first, the original incidents now become the echoes, and all it really achieves is to take the storytelling impact away from them. When Vader says, "I ... am your father!", it's nothing more now than an unwelcome surprise for Luke — it's now info we already know, and our response is more a matter of, "Yeah ... and??"

That's the point. We as the audience know who Vader is, but Luke doesn't, so its a major shock to him. It adds new dimensions to the Death Star Trench run, and the battle in the carbon-freeze chamber. Those of us who grew up with the OT are aware of the truth, but future generations won't be, and that's Lucas' aim.

The PT doesn't allow the OT to retain the story value it once had, and it doesn't add anything of particular interest in its place. Believe me, as a big fan of the original trilogy, I wish it was otherwise.

Would you mind elaborating on this? I can think of several moments from the PT that are very memorable.

[aiman04]

Lucas was smart to start in the middle of the saga then. At least people are genuinely surprised with the Vader revelation. Now (1999) that everyone knows that already, he can start back at the beginning. I think that's the best way.

[mzupeman]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Where?

Well, one major addition was explaining how Palpatine came to power, and used the Jedi as pawns in his own twisted game.

But it's really a bloated storyline that didn't need telling. I know, it's all opinion. But the point is this - He's the bad guy, he became the emporer, and he has power over Darth Vader. the OT makes that all quite clear without having to explain the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

That's the point. We as the audience know who Vader is, but Luke doesn't, so its a major shock to him. It adds new dimensions to the Death Star Trench run, and the battle in the carbon-freeze chamber. Those of us who grew up with the OT are aware of the truth, but future generations won't be, and that's Lucas' aim.

But the point of the PT was never to 'enrich' the OT. The point was to tell the pre-history of episodes IV-VI, and let us see everything that was mentioned or hinted at in the OT. Who honestly cares if Luke finding out about his father comes as a shock to him? These are movies, and a film is really not doing its job very well if it does little to evoke such emotions from the AUDIENCE. When the world found out Vader was Luke's father, it was awesome, and now that scene has been severely diminished. This is NO WAY 'enhances' the story for future generations either. It just means the OT won't hold the same spark as it once did, which is a shame because they are clearly the superior set of films here.

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Would you mind elaborating on this? I can think of several moments from the PT that are very memorable.

His point was that the PT takes away from scenes from the OT, and he explained it quite clearly.

[HylianBowcaster]

I'm pretty sure nearly everyone in America and the Western World know that Vader is Luke's father. I think we can call that spoiled for everyone and not by the PT either. It's just common movie knowledge the often misquoted line, "Luke, I am your father."

[ObiTrentKenobi]

Originally Posted by HylianBowcaster

I'm pretty sure nearly everyone in America and the Western World know that Vader is Luke's father. I think we can call that spoiled for everyone and not by the PT either. It's just common movie knowledge the often misquoted line, "Luke, I am your father."

My 4 year old does not yet know... and i'll be danged if someone ruins it for him - he must find out just like I did so long ago.

When I think he's ready we will be having a sit-down and we'll watch them together. Only, he gets to watch it in HD, and i grew up watching craptacular VHS's... spoiled kid!

EDIT: Revelation! I will make him watch the original VHS's first! Then if he gets into it - I'll let him know about the special editions/blurays! Moo hahahahahaha!

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by mzupeman

But it's really a bloated storyline that didn't need telling. I know, it's all opinion. But the point is this - He's the bad guy, he became the emporer, and he has power over Darth Vader. the OT makes that all quite clear without having to explain the whole thing.

"A New Hope" implies that Vader serves the Emperor, but it doesn't get spelled out until the hologram scene in "Empire". Even then, its not fully revealed until the end of "Jedi", when Vader realizes that his master's plan is to goad Luke into killing his own father.

Who honestly cares if Luke finding out about his father comes as a shock to him?

I certainly cared the first time I saw it. That moment had a huge impact on me, and "Episode III" increased it.

When the world found out Vader was Luke's father, it was awesome, and now that scene has been severely diminished. This is NO WAY 'enhances' the story for future generations either. It just means the OT won't hold the same spark as it once did, which is a shame because they are clearly the superior set of films here.

You probably think that because of growing up with the OT beforehand, but future audiences won't share that sentiment. They'll think of "Star Wars" as a six-part saga, not two trilogies set 20 years apart.

[Maggot]

Originally Posted by ObiTrentKenobi

Would we all admit that if Lucas released a Bluray set that compared to the new Harry Potter set, such as multiple cuts of the films (The newest Special Editions and the Unaltered Original Trilogy) and a conglomeration of all the previously released Bluray AND DVD special features all in their highest quality possible?; he would 100% redeem himself of any childhood scourging?

I don't generally mind what he did with the Special Editions and up, EXCEPT for the Solo/Greedo "who shot first" thing in ANH and quite particularly for me, the Vader "NO!" at the end of ROTJ. That NO! completely ruined the ending. It was so much better to have silence and guess for yourself what he was thinking and going through under that helmet as his son was being destroyed. The mental torment he was going through, then to see him quietly make his choice and just do it. And then to hear that dumb as hell....NO!, it makes me kringe and makes my stomach sick.

[MacEachaidh]

Thanks for your replies, Moviefan2k4.

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Well, one major addition was explaining how Palpatine came to power, and used the Jedi as pawns in his own twisted game.

True, there is some story value there, though for me the most interesting thing about the Emperor's machinations overall was the way he used Anakin's guilty secret of his marriage to Amidala and his fear that she would die, to coerce Anakin into becoming his apprentice. And of course, planting Anakin on the Jedi Council to create distrust and dissension.

But I just didn't ... OK, I guess I don't like the way Lucas tried to reframe the whole story as Anakin's Redemption, but didn't manage to make Anakin a sympathetic character. I want to care about Vader, and "feel the good in him", but I never get to, and in the process I think the character of Luke is somewhat diminished. The OT now is no longer Luke's Big Adventure, it's been refit as Waiting for Luke To Pull His Father's Mask Off, a tone and purpose it doesn't convey so well.

That's the point. We as the audience know who Vader is, but Luke doesn't, so its a major shock to him. It adds new dimensions to the Death Star Trench run, and the battle in the carbon-freeze chamber. Those of us who grew up with the OT are aware of the truth, but future generations won't be, and that's Lucas' aim.

OK, I can see what you're saying. Personally I think what it adds isn't that substantial — no more than a "huh!"-grunt — because it doesn't change our perception of Luke's behaviour in any way. We merely know a bit earlier that there's a relationship between Luke and Vader, and what that is, and one film earlier that it's actually for the good that Luke hasn't killed him. But the "OMG!" moment is gone forever, and not just because we've already seen it. (Makes you want to shout, "Noooooooooooooo!!!!" )

Would you mind elaborating on this? I can think of several moments from the PT that are very memorable.

There are a few visually-impressive setpieces, sure, but for me sequences like the podrace and the space battle that opens RotS aren't all that successful as entertaining pieces of film. Technically impressive, maybe, but honestly, don't you find them a bit tedious? Ditto the arena battle in AotC, actually. For me, the PT doesn't really have any great moments that match the run on the Death Star, or the asteroid field in ESB, or even the Pit of Sarnac or the jetcycle chase in the forest on Endor.

Which might come down to something as prosaic as the fact that the OT was largely filmed practically with physical models, while the PT was largely filmed on green-screened soundstages and fleshed out by CGI. I think the staging of many of the scenes in the PT is fairly pedestrian — even the sequence on the assembly line in AotC is less exhilarating than the simple scene in ANH where Luke and Leia swing across the missing bridgeway on a bit of cable to escape the stormtroopers.

But when I said the PT didn't add much — and I admit that was perhaps too sweeping a statement — I meant in terms of story value. There are moments, but I honestly find most of the story contained in the PT to be pretty inconsequential.

For me, the single most exciting sequence in the PT is when Palpatine is seducing Anakin to his way of thinking by telling him the story of Darth Plagus. (Spelling?) To me, it was mesmerising and chilling, and I wish we'd had far more moments like that in those three films.

[Rainet]

I am thinking of picking up this set used. Really interested in the bonus material. Can someone verify if the documentaries and bonus material in general, have optional english subtitles?

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Thanks for your replies, Moviefan2k4.

No problem.

True, there is some story value there, though for me the most interesting thing about the Emperor's machinations overall was the way he used Anakin's guilty secret of his marriage to Amidala and his fear that she would die, to coerce Anakin into becoming his apprentice. And of course, planting Anakin on the Jedi Council to create distrust and dissension.

That was just the tail end of it, though. It all started with him using the Trade Federation to blockade Naboo, knowing Valorum would send the Jedi to intervene. Anakin's destruction of the Control Ship placed him on Palpatine's radar, and from that point he focused on corrupting the young boy. Similarly, Obi-Wan's defeat of Darth Maul placed him in the crosshairs, too. As the years passed, he saw the best way to manipulate Anakin was through his friendship with Kenobi.

But I just didn't ... OK, I guess I don't like the way Lucas tried to reframe the whole story as Anakin's Redemption, but didn't manage to make Anakin a sympathetic character.

What did you find so unbelievable about his character? Anakin was like all of us, with the same capacity for corruption. His main failure wasn't love, but pride and fear. His resentment toward the Jedi Council was right, because their only answers to such things were detachment and denial. Ki Adi Mundi and Mace Windu even dismiss Qui-Gon's assertions about Maul, while Yoda sits on the proverbial fence. Qui-Gon's death shook them up a bit, but not enough.

I want to care about Vader, and "feel the good in him", but I never get to, and in the process I think the character of Luke is somewhat diminished. The OT now is no longer Luke's Big Adventure, it's been refit as Waiting for Luke To Pull His Father's Mask Off, a tone and purpose it doesn't convey so well.

I still get a great deal of entertainment and narrative value from the OT; in fact, I noticed a lot more story connections, after "Sith" was released.

There are a few visually-impressive setpieces, sure, but for me sequences like the podrace and the space battle that opens RotS aren't all that successful as entertaining pieces of film. Technically impressive, maybe, but honestly, don't you find them a bit tedious?

The podrace was a little long, but the payoff is still cool, and I loved the opening war scenes in "Sith".

Ditto the arena battle in AotC, actually. For me, the PT doesn't really have any great moments that match the run on the Death Star, or the asteroid field in ESB, or even the Pit of Carkoon or the speeder bike chase in the forest on Endor.

I like the arena battle too, especially when the Clones show up to save what's left of the Jedi.

For me, the single most exciting sequence in the PT is when Palpatine is seducing Anakin to his way of thinking by telling him the story of Darth Plagus. (Spelling?) To me, it was mezmerising and chilling, and I wish we'd had far more moments like that in those three films.

The spelling is actually "Plagueis", as in "[the] plague is". The "Sith" novel reveals a little more about him, when Palpatine admits to Anakin that Plagueis was his own master.