Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Geoff D]

Watched Clones yesterday and Sith tonight. The former is still the worst movie of the bunch, but it really wasn't as consistently bad as I remember. The dialogue is still atrocious and Ms Portman delivers an incredibly blank performance, but Hayden is surprisingly good value, just as long as he doesn't speak.

I got into the story a bit more, as before I was always puzzled why the Trade Federation wanted Padme dead so badly, seeing as she was opposing the Military Creation Act which would've created an army to fight the Separatists. But now I realise that they simply want her dead because of what she did 10 years earlier, and they would also want the Republic to approve an army because it's a provocative act that will give the Separatists cause to attack.

(Though they don't know that Palpatine has been cooking up a Clone Army which is ready and waiting to kick ass, so as soon as the Separatists do declare war the Republic is ready to fight, causing a near-instant stalemate and ensuring that the war will drag on for years. He's a crafty one, that Palpatine.)

As mentioned before, I love the battle scenes at the end. I think the CG holds up brilliantly, although I'm less enamoured with the Blu-ray. For the first time I can appreciate the shortcomings of the HD format that it was shot on. Mind you, fine detail isn't a problem because it's surprisingly crisp in that respect, but whenever the image gets a bit darker the colour resolution starts to suffer, looking crushed and indistinct, especially skin tones. There's more banding than I remember, too.

As for Sith I greatly enjoyed it, although it loses a few points at the end. Lucas seems like a much more confident director third time around (actors notwithstanding). It's like he had to learn the ropes all over again on Ep I, then he had to adjust to the digital cameras on Ep II, and only on Ep III does he finally seem comfortable with the technology and let the visuals tell the story. There are glimpses of that confidence in Clones, like Padme embracing Anakin played out as shadows, or the abstract cutting of Anakin vs Dooku when the lights go out and they're illuminated only by their lightsabers, but Sith ratchets it up a notch, grabbing hold of you in the opening shot and it doesn't let go.

I particularly like the sequence where Anakin and Padme stare out across the city, seemingly at one another, which is scored with some damned eerie music. Sith has got one of my favourite lines of the whole saga, too: "So this is how liberty dies - with thunderous applause", and I love the bit when Obi-Wan says "Anakin is the father, isn't he? I'm so sorry" and that fantastic music swells up in the background. It does let the side down with Padme's ridiculous death and the goofy 'birth' of Vader, though.

The Blu-ray's PQ is more robust than that of Clones, and it's immediately obvious that they improved the cameras considerably in the interim, as the colour is much better in terms of saturation and gradation (IIRC they went from 8-bit on Clones to 12-bit on Sith) especially in the darker scenes, and it has nice, sharp detail in general. Things have moved on since I last saw it, so I wouldn't be as generous as I was in my TDF review from 2011, but it's still very, very good.

Oh, and Struzan is God.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Yeah the Da Vinci's Mona Lisa...just like photoshop! All he really did was capture the image.

There's a difference: he wasn't copying an existing photo/capture/painting (not that they existed at the time mind you). DaVinci's work was ORIGINAL. It did not exist in any other form.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

There's a difference: he wasn't copying an existing photo/capture/painting (not that they existed at the time mind you). DaVinci's work was ORIGINAL. It did not exist in any other form.

So what. Da Vinci had someone posing for him, Struzan has a picture. They are both capturing an image in their form of art.
Both are quite legendary in their respective fields.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Both are quite legendary in their respective fields.

Yeah, I think the jury might be out on that one for a few hundred more years.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by octagon

Yeah, I think the jury might be out on that one for a few hundred more years.

Key word being "respective"...Struzan is, widely, considered a legend in movie poster art. Just watch the documentary(which is excellent btw).

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by rickah88

So what. Da Vinci had someone posing for him, Struzan has a picture. They are both capturing an image in their form of art.
Both are quite legendary in their respective fields.

"Real life" isn't an image. Plus Struzan didn't take the picture, so one can argue he's plagiarizing someone else's art.

Or is photography not an art?

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

"Real life" isn't an image. Plus Struzan didn't take the picture, so one can argue he's plagiarizing someone else's art.

Or is photography not an art?

OMG, this is getting up there with your Jurassic Park nonsense. Yes, he's commisioned to do the Star Wars art, by plagiarizing it.

Stick to audio specs, at least you fare slightly better in that department.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Stick to audio specs, at least you fare slightly better in that department.

Wow, now you're trying to censor/ridicule dissenting opinions about art. You would have done well in 1945-1991 Eastern Europe.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Wow, now you're trying to censor dissenting opinions about art. You would have done well in 1945-1991 Eastern Europe.

Your opinion is your own, that's fine I get that.
Your reasoning is...unreasonable. That's my opinion.


Well I lived in Western Europe(Ramstein AFB) from '81-'83, and did visit East Berlin via Checkpoint Charlie...but I'm not really clear how that applies here.

[Luminous]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

I wish Anakin had been older in TPM. I had always imagined him being Luke's age when Obi-Wan met him and took him in. Obi-Wan and company could have been sidelined to Tatooine (as in TPM) and encountered this young, hot shot pilot named Anakin who lives with his brother Owen and races pods or earns for the Hutts. A series of scuffles and conflicts could occur (a pod race, a cantina fight) and Obi-Wan and Anakin could become reluctant friends and partners. Obi-Wan could sense something in Anakin and talk him into joining up with him and eventually seeking audience with the Council about possible Jedi training. Owen, of course, wants nothing to do with this and pleads with his brother to stay behind. Anakin would crave the thought of adventure and tagging along with hot pants Padme can't be a bad thing, so he'd go along anyway.

A mention of Anakin's parents isn't necessary. I exclude Qui-Gonn because, quite frankly, I'm not sure he needs to exist. Nothing against Liam Neeson or his portrayal (he basically drove the movie as is), but everything in him could have been carried by Obi-Wan, who himself would have been the teacher character once Anakin started hanging around. I'd make Obi-Wan a little older here, maybe about 40. He'd be the one insistent on Anakin being trained in spite of his age and impulsiveness. He wants to prove himself (this could possibly be his first apprentice) to the council and Yoda, who trained him. He is right, or course, but also over eager and not thinking about the consequences of training Anakin.

Just some thoughts. I think it would have been a less cluttered movie, given us a better character with an older Anakin, and been much more in line with Obi-Wan's exposition in the OT.

This is pretty much how I wish TPM would have been handled. Excellent post.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

There's a difference: he wasn't copying an existing photo/capture/painting (not that they existed at the time mind you). DaVinci's work was ORIGINAL. It did not exist in any other form.

All artists steal. All of them. There is no such thing as an original work. Artists build off of their influences the same way that scientists build off of other scientist's work. Michelangelo (like many great artists) employed understudies who's job was to copy his style perfectly to cut down on his workload, and at the same time, teaching the understudies how to steal from him so as to develop their own skills.

"Good artists copy, great artists steal."
-Pablo Picasso

"I steal from every movie ever made."
-Quinton Tarantino

"The only art I'll ever study is the stuff I can steal from."
-David Bowie

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Your opinion is your own, that's fine I get that.
Your reasoning is...unreasonable. That's my opinion.

I think people can agree/disagree without getting personal.

Well I lived in Western Europe(Ramstein AFB) from '81-'83, and did visit East Berlin via Checkpoint Charlie...but I'm not really clear how that applies here.

Non-approved artworks and all.

Did it bug you in Air Force One the F-15s at Ramstein had our "EG" (Eglin AFB) tail IDs?

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

~snip~

I particularly like the sequence where Anakin and Padme stare out across the city, seemingly at one another, which is scored with some damned eerie music. ~snip~

The track is called Padme's Ruminations

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by RayCRP

While we're on the subject of Qui-Gon, I really wish Lucasfilm would bring Neeson in to record the dialogue for the scene in which Yoda was talking to him through the Force in RotS. I was disappointed that scene didn't make it in, yet a million unnecessary endings made the cut. Even if it wasn't part of the initial release, bring him in to record it, so they at least have the option of adding it in the future.

It explains Force ghosts without the need for outside material (which is especially great because it's such a crucial element in A New Hope). It explains why Yoda's philosophies are radically different in the OT compared to the PT. It brings his differences with the Jedi Council around full circle.

I think Force ghosts were always kind of a problem, a result of ANH being a single movie before the mythology took on a life of its own in the sequels. In the original film, it worked because no one (including Lucas) really knew what was going on with Obi-Wan's disappearance. Vader was puzzled by it and the voice heard by Luke was mysterious and a little ambiguous. In the following two films, we see Yoda do the same thing, and eventually Vader but without disappearing (I don't care what later material says, he clearly didn't disappear on screen and the notion of Luke burning empty armor on a funeral pyre doesn't make any sense). The question, even in the original trilogy, was what happened to the ghosts of the Jedi of the past? Did they disappear too? Or did we only see these three ghosts because they were significant to Luke? It wasn't explained and I guess it didn't really need to be. It could be sold as these three came back because they wanted to commune with Luke. There were really only two problems left then: Why Vader was confused at Obi-Wan's disappearance if it was just something that Jedi did and something that he himself did later, and what about the Emperor? The concept of the Sith was not established in the movies. Was he considered something apart from what the Jedi were? Did Vader only get to be a ghost because he was once a Jedi? Are there no evil ghosts?

Then come the prequels and the whole thing falls apart. Qui-Gon, quite deliberately on Lucas' part, doesn't disappear. He shows us his burning body so we know, without a doubt, that he doesn't disappear. It's so explicit that I could picture George rubbing his hands together at the thought of whetting our appetites. They're all gonna be wondering why this Jedi didn't disappear! Just wait until they see what I've got cooked up for the NEXT movie!

But he didn't cook up anything. More Jedi died, more Jedi didn't disappear. Nothing is explained. In the last five minutes, Yoda says Qui-Gon has been talking to him and telling him things we don't get to hear. Yoda then tells Obi-Wan that he will show him how to talk to Qui-Gon about things we don't get to hear, which may include the disappearing trick or hockey scores for all we know. Qui-Gon is somehow talking from beyond the grave, but he didn't disappear. So he's a half ghost? And he comes back 13 years after dying to tell Yoda and Obi-Wan how to eventually become full ghosts? And then once they're full ghosts, they can tell Anakin, on the moment of his death, and assuming he makes it back to the good side before he dies, how to become a full ghost too? Only Anakin gets to be a full ghost without disappearing... See, NOW should have been the moment Vader got confused.

George really screwed the pooch on that one. I'm sure the EU has tried its best to plug the holes, but it shouldn't have to. This stuff should have been explained in the films which are the only thing that 90% of people who are asking the question will be exposed to.

[manunited1]

[Show spoiler][S]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

I think Force ghosts were always kind of a problem, a result of ANH being a single movie before the mythology took on a life of its own in the sequels. In the original film, it worked because no one (including Lucas) really knew what was going on with Obi-Wan's disappearance. Vader was puzzled by it and the voice heard by Luke was mysterious and a little ambiguous. In the following two films, we see Yoda do the same thing, and eventually Vader but without disappearing (I don't care what later material says, he clearly didn't disappear on screen and the notion of Luke burning empty armor on a funeral pyre doesn't make any sense). The question, even in the original trilogy, was what happened to the ghosts of the Jedi of the past? Did they disappear too? Or did we only see these three ghosts because they were significant to Luke? It wasn't explained and I guess it didn't really need to be. It could be sold as these three came back because they wanted to commune with Luke. There were really only two problems left then: Why Vader was confused at Obi-Wan's disappearance if it was just something that Jedi did and something that he himself did later, and what about the Emperor? The concept of the Sith was not established in the movies. Was he considered something apart from what the Jedi were? Did Vader only get to be a ghost because he was once a Jedi? Are there no evil ghosts?

Then come the prequels and the whole thing falls apart. Qui-Gon, quite deliberately on Lucas' part, doesn't disappear. He shows us his burning body so we know, without a doubt, that he doesn't disappear. It's so explicit that I could picture George rubbing his hands together at the thought of whetting our appetites. They're all gonna be wondering why this Jedi didn't disappear! Just wait until they see what I've got cooked up for the NEXT movie!

But he didn't cook up anything. More Jedi died, more Jedi didn't disappear. Nothing is explained. In the last five minutes, Yoda says Qui-Gon has been talking to him and telling him things we don't get to hear. Yoda then tells Obi-Wan that he will show him how to talk to Qui-Gon about things we don't get to hear, which may include the disappearing trick or hockey scores for all we know. Qui-Gon is somehow talking from beyond the grave, but he didn't disappear. So he's a half ghost? And he comes back 13 years after dying to tell Yoda and Obi-Wan how to eventually become full ghosts? And then once they're full ghosts, they can tell Anakin, on the moment of his death, and assuming he makes it back to the good side before he dies, how to become a full ghost too? Only Anakin gets to be a full ghost without disappearing... See, NOW should have been the moment Vader got confused.

George really screwed the pooch on that one. I'm sure the EU has tried its best to plug the holes, but it shouldn't have to. This stuff should have been explained in the films which are the only thing that 90% of people who are asking the question will be exposed to.

[/S]

In all fairness Yoda does say that Qui Gon learned to come back once in the afterlife, not before like Obi Wan presumably did. Also there is no evidence that Anakin ever knew of such an ability. Someone poisoned by the dark side would never be pure enough to send their spirit back to our world.

My biggest prequals qualms are with Chewy... If he is fighting on Kashyyyk with Yoda then he seems to have barely known Han at all... Really ruined my views on their relationship. I figured that short time before ANH they would have been buddies getting into space adventures

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Watched Clones yesterday and Sith tonight. The former is still the worst movie of the bunch, but it really wasn't as consistently bad as I remember. The dialogue is still atrocious and Ms Portman delivers an incredibly blank performance, but Hayden is surprisingly good value, just as long as he doesn't speak.

I got into the story a bit more, as before I was always puzzled why the Trade Federation wanted Padme dead so badly, seeing as she was opposing the Military Creation Act which would've created an army to fight the Separatists. But now I realise that they simply want her dead because of what she did 10 years earlier, and they would also want the Republic to approve an army because it's a provocative act that will give the Separatists cause to attack.

That's one way to look at it, although that might be giving the story too much credit. I think it's a plot hole that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, myself. Did the Trade Federation even want a war? From their point of view, they were rallying behind Count Dooku, a supposed revolutionary who was going to help all of these factions join up and either force a change in the Republic or break away from it all together. War was possible but I wouldn't think they'd want to provoke one, especially since it wouldn't necessarily give them what they wanted. Besides, the Separatists were already, er, separating, so why not just attack anyway? Did Padme ever give a reason for opposing the creation of an army? Was it just because she was from touchy feely Naboo and therefore didn't like fights and guns and stuff? Why in the world would she suspect Count Dooku of wanting to kill her? Again, from her point of view, he was nothing but a former Jedi turned revolutionary who wanted to break away from the Republic. Why would he want to kill someone who was essentially voting in his favor? We know what his reasons were, but she shouldn't have. Oh well, nobody assassinated her and no one really seemed to care after that anyway. Zam Wesell got killed, so did Jango, so I wonder if Dooku had to issue the Trade Federation a refund for never killing Padme. Guess they forgot to ask him for one.

[manunited1]

The Trade Federation just sided with whoever were giving them money for their droids. They are like the u.s in many ways. Just following the money wherever that may be. Their heads were killed off by Anakin after the transfer of power over to the Empire and their use of the clones.

Pad me has always been a diplomat and fought against wars and the military industrial complex, much like JFK... Jango completed that mission lol

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by manunited1

[Show spoiler][S][/S]

In all fairness Yoda does say that Qui Gon learned to come back once in the afterlife, not before like Obi Wan presumably did. Also there is no evidence that Anakin ever knew of such an ability. Someone poisoned by the dark side would never be pure enough to send their spirit back to our world.

My biggest prequals qualms are with Chewy... If he is fighting on Kashyyyk with Yoda then he seems to have barely known Han at all... Really ruined my views on their relationship. I figured that short time before ANH they would have been buddies getting into space adventures

But Qui-Gon didn't disappear and become a ghost. So he figured this out when he was dead. And it took him a few years to tell anyone. So his body didn't disappear, but his spirit was out there somewhere or something. So he told Yoda who told Obi-Wan and I guess the two of them figured out the parts that dead Qui-Gon didn't because they got to disappear and be ghosts that people could see, while Qui-Gon's invisible spirit is presumably still out there whispering in people's ears. I don't know, I still think I'm missing something.

Not sure I get the issue with Chewie. Harrison was 33 in ANH, I would assume that the Han Solo character was meant to be around the same age. ROTS is 19 years before ANH. So Han isn't really old enough to have known Chewy for ages and ages, unless you're one of those who thinks a boy Han Solo should have been hanging out with Chewie on Kashyyykk in which case... well, anyway. I'd imagine Han and Chewie meeting a few years before ANH and having many adventures already, works for me.

[manunited1]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

But Qui-Gon didn't disappear and become a ghost. So he figured this out when he was dead. And it took him a few years to tell anyone. So his body didn't disappear, but his spirit was out there somewhere or something. So he told Yoda who told Obi-Wan and I guess the two of them figured out the parts that dead Qui-Gon didn't because they got to disappear and be ghosts that people could see, while Qui-Gon's invisible spirit is presumably still out there whispering in people's ears. I don't know, I still think I'm missing something.

Not sure I get the issue with Chewie. Harrison was 33 in ANH, I would assume that the Han Solo character was meant to be around the same age. ROTS is 19 years before ANH. So Han isn't really old enough to have known Chewy for ages and ages, unless you're one of those who thinks a boy Han Solo should have been hanging out with Chewie on Kashyyykk in which case... well, anyway. I'd imagine Han and Chewie meeting a few years before ANH and having many adventures already, works for me.

I think that is why Obi wan disappeared, because he knew the way in life not in death.

As for Chewie and Han... I would have liked to think they grew up together Judging by their relationship. Maybe just my imagination. Another thing, it totally implies in ANH that wookies are vicious and a friend to nobody other than their own, leading us to think Han and Chewies relationship is very rare. But in ROtS the Wooks seem super nice and chewbacca is not a youngling. So I guess he is way older than Han? It just does not fit into my boyhood imagination of the original films. I imagined them on Tattooine stirring up trouble in Cantinas and winning the Falcon from Lando. Kashyyyk was never in my mind cause it was never mentioned in the old movies to my memory.

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by manunited1

I think that is why Obi wan disappeared, because he knew the way in life not in death.

As for Chewie and Han... I would have liked to think they grew up together Judging by their relationship. Maybe just my imagination. Another thing, it totally implies in ANH that wookies are vicious and a friend to nobody other than their own, leading us to think Han and Chewies relationship is very rare. But in ROtS the Wooks seem super nice and chewbacca is not a youngling. So I guess he is way older than Han? It just does not fit into my boyhood imagination of the original films.

Fair enough about Chewbacca. For some reason, even when I was younger, I always assumed Chewbacca was much older than Han (maybe in dog years at least). I don't know why. I never pictured a boy Han hanging out with a puppy Chewbacca. I just figured they were an odd couple that fell in together in some unlikely circumstance. I also think the Wookie scenes in ROTS work with ANH. I think they're supposed to be the "brutal, yet honorable" race of these movies, the "respectful savages". I can totally buy them being friends to Yoda. But then again, TPM gave them a senate seat so who the hell knows.