Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Correct, they tweaked it in the later SE revisions and I think it looks pretty respectable, all things considered.

Yeah, with the Rancor I just would have gone past respectable and just really taken time with it - it's iconic - before I started adding all kinds of doodads. It's like adding expensive, shiny, obnoxious rims to your tires before you get the axle in working shape, LOL. I think it's a focus thing - I'll have to go back and pay closer attention next time and really see what it is that still seems off to me. It's just a few seconds and I don't pause it to analyze, it just still sticks out at me.

I realize they they reduced the matte lines, so they don't look like a fat sharpie and now look like a fine tip felt pen, and I'm totally fine with just leaving the whole thing be the way it was in 1983 - but...in that recurring theme, if they were gonna do all this, I wish they had simply done it all the way and really cleaned up stuff before they started adding baubles and doodads.

[Bruce Campbell]

The bad thing about the laserdiscs and the DVDs (besides the picture and audio quality) is that even if you did zoom them to fill up the screen the subtitles of Greedo and Jabba are lopped off at the bottom. So you are left with window boxed originals or anamorphic terrible special editions.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity

Are these Laserdiscs anamorphic?

Anamorphic didn't really exist commercially on LD, at least in the US. There was the "Squeeze LD" attempt at near the end, but no titles were actually released for purchase in the states (there were a few promo titles that one could get by buying a 16x9 TV though, I think there were like 4?) and only a handful commercially released in Japan.

No only were the TV's super-rare back then, but also - unlike DVD where it's built into the DVD standard (which, ironically, is one of the reasons Blu-ray adoption has been so slow - folks are now seeing DVDs on HDTV's in their full glory, so they look better than ever to them, even if there is "even better" available) there were only a couple of models of LD player that would let you switch between modes, the audience for these discs was very niche.

Basically, you can assume that every LD is non-anamoprhic, unless it says "SQUEEZE LD", and even then, unless it's one of the 4 US releases, it's going to have burned in Japanese subtitles, to boot.

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

Anamorphic didn't really exist commercially on LD, at least in the US. There was the "Squeeze LD" attempt at near the end, but no titles were actually released for purchase in the states (there were a few promo titles that one could get by buying a 16x9 TV though, I think there were like 4?) and only a handful commercially released in Japan.

No only were the TV's super-rare back then, but also - unlike DVD where it's built into the DVD standard (which, ironically, is one of the reasons Blu-ray adoption has been so slow - folks are now seeing DVDs on HDTV's in their full glory, so they look better than ever to them, even if there is "even better" available) there were only a couple of models of LD player that would let you switch between modes, the audience for these discs was very niche.

Basically, you can assume that every LD is non-anamoprhic, unless it says "SQUEEZE LD", and even then, unless it's one of the 4 US releases, it's going to have burned in Japanese subtitles, to boot.

Interesting.

Thanks for the info.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

Yeah, with the Rancor I just would have gone past respectable and just really taken time with it - it's iconic - before I started adding all kinds of doodads. It's like adding expensive, shiny, obnoxious rims to your tires before you get the axle in working shape, LOL. I think it's a focus thing - I'll have to go back and pay closer attention next time and really see what it is that still seems off to me. It's just a few seconds and I don't pause it to analyze, it just still sticks out at me.

I realize they they reduced the matte lines, so they don't look like a fat sharpie and now look like a fine tip felt pen, and I'm totally fine with just leaving the whole thing be the way it was in 1983 - but...in that recurring theme, if they were gonna do all this, I wish they had simply done it all the way and really cleaned up stuff before they started adding baubles and doodads.

When I say "respectable", I mean "it looks as good as a live actor being comped into shots of a freakin' hand puppet shot in 1983 could look", i.e. it's respectable by today's digital standards but you're not gonna get any more out of it without overhauling the entire scene.

I know what you're saying about something being 'off' about it, for me there's always been a certain disconnect between Luke and the creature owing to the way that the sequence is lit, shot and edited, all of it dictated by the state of VFX technology at that time. Perhaps a stop motion creature would've been more successful, yet for whatever reasons they didn't go down that route and we're stuck with what we got.

The scale doesn't help, as the hand puppet just doesn't have the immensity or the spatial context (it's just a dark cave, after all) to really sell it. IIRC the first version was a guy in a suit, and even though they didn't use that iteration they could've done more with the camera to try and fake the size of the creature. Instead they used some diddy little thing with ball bearings for eyeballs (which highlights how small it actually was!).

Sure, it's not like glove puppets can't work, 'cause the space slug in Empire is great, but that's because it's arranged properly in the visual sense: we can see the tiny Falcon escaping, we can see the pock-marked detail in the asteroid's surface and the starfield beyond, it all sells the scale superbly. Yet Jedi's hand puppet is poor in comparison, made in such a way that they have to keep cutting around it when it interacts with Luke, resulting in that disconnect which I mentioned and the scene has no sense of rhythm or flow.

Folks can say what they like about Attack of the Clones' CG-overload aesthetic, but I'll defend the arena execution scene with my dying breath because it's essentially the Rancor bit turned up to 11 (which is a common throughline in the prequels, that of Lucas essentially remaking his original movies) and I love it. I love the batshit design of the Acklay and the way that it rears up and tries to fend off Obi-Wan, I love the way that the cat thingy doesn't give a **** when it starts lunch early, and I love that shot when Anakin calms the big bastard creature and you can actually see the understanding in its eyes.

Not only that, there's a proper sense of scale: we can actually see our heroes and the creatures all in one shot, framed against a deep backdrop and, if that wasn't enough, there are four massive columns in the middle of the arena which are fairly useless in story terms (how often do they execute people who are bigger than these creatures?) but they're there for a visual purpose, to give scale to these monsters. All of this is missing from the Rancor scene in Jedi. Yeah, we feel sorry for the creature, but that's only because of that genius bit when his handler starts crying.

All I'm trying to say is that the Rancor scene is fundamentally flawed, and no amount of smoothing the edges of the VFX will fix it.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

When I say "respectable", I mean "it looks as good as a live actor being comped into shots of a freakin' hand puppet shot in 1983 could look", i.e. it's respectable by today's digital standards but you're not gonna get any more out of it without overhauling the entire scene.

I know what you're saying about something being 'off' about it, for me there's always been a certain disconnect between Luke and the creature owing to the way that the sequence is lit, shot and edited, all of it dictated by the state of VFX technology at that time. Perhaps a stop motion creature would've been more successful, yet for whatever reasons they didn't go down that route and we're stuck with what we got.

The scale doesn't help, as the hand puppet just doesn't have the immensity or the spatial context (it's just a dark cave, after all) to really sell it. IIRC the first version was a guy in a suit, and even though they didn't use that iteration they could've done more with the camera to try and fake the size of the creature. Instead they used some diddy little thing with ball bearings for eyeballs (which highlights how small it actually was!).

Sure, it's not like glove puppets can't work, 'cause the space slug in Empire is great, but that's because it's arranged properly in the visual sense: we can see the tiny Falcon escaping, we can see the pock-marked detail in the asteroid's surface and the starfield beyond, it all sells the scale superbly. Yet Jedi's hand puppet is poor in comparison, made in such a way that they have to keep cutting around it when it interacts with Luke, resulting in that disconnect which I mentioned and the scene has no sense of rhythm or flow.

Folks can say what they like about Attack of the Clones' CG-overload aesthetic, but I'll defend the arena execution scene with my dying breath because it's essentially the Rancor bit turned up to 11 (which is a common throughline in the prequels, that of Lucas essentially remaking his original movies) and I love it. I love the batshit design of the Acklay and the way that it rears up and tries to fend off Obi-Wan, I love the way that the cat thingy doesn't give a **** when it starts lunch early, and I love that shot when Anakin calms the big bastard creature and you can actually see the understanding in its eyes.

Not only that, there's a proper sense of scale: we can actually see our heroes and the creatures all in one shot, framed against a deep backdrop and, if that wasn't enough, there are four massive columns in the middle of the arena which are fairly useless in story terms (how often do they execute people who are bigger than these creatures?) but they're there for a visual purpose, to give scale to these monsters. All of this is missing from the Rancor scene in Jedi. Yeah, we feel sorry for the creature, but that's only because of that genius bit when his handler starts crying.

All I'm trying to say is that the Rancor scene is fundamentally flawed, and no amount of smoothing the edges of the VFX will fix it.

I agree that the monster fight in the arena in AOTC is good (and unlike much of the VFX in the film it looks like they actually tried hard), it's everything after Mace Windu showing up that's a shoddy Playstation 2 level mess.

And the rancor scene was the one thing that I thought should've gotten fixed (color corrected, matte line erasure) that wasn't done in the 1997 ROTJ SE but thankfully was fixed in the 2004 one.

[Bruce Campbell]

I know it has been gone over to death but if Lucas has just fixed special effects and not added or changed things I don't doubt that none of the anger/disappointment we have now would be there. As it stands now I will take matte lines around the rancor and TIE fighters if I don't have to sit through Jedi Rocks.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Bruce Campbell

I know it has been gone over to death but if Lucas has just fixed special effects and not added or changed things I don't doubt that none of the anger/disappointment we have now would be there. As it stands now I will take matte lines around the rancor and TIE fighters if I don't have to sit through Jedi Rocks.

No you would still have a little because the original shot should be preserved. When I watch a film I want to be captured into the "era". I dont want to watch a fake film, or one that misrepresents a moment in time. Personally I want my SW with all the flaws in 1080 HD. What makes Star Wars different than any other classic film when it comes clean up and restoration of the original print? Just because it's a film laden with special effects?

[gregmasciola]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

...(And by the way, why did either Luke cutting his hand off or Vader lifting up the emperor kill Vader? - that never made sense either.)

I always thought of it like the Emperor's zapping keeps getting a bit more powerful each time he does it, so when Vader lifts him up, he's the one getting zapped, and he gets the final blow that would have killed Luke.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Elvis

No you would still have a little because the original shot should be preserved. When I watch a film I want to be captured into the "era". I dont want to watch a fake film, or one that misrepresents a moment in time. Personally I want my SW with all the flaws in 1080 HD. What makes Star Wars different than any other classic film when it comes clean up and restoration of the original print? Just because it's a film laden with special effects?

King, what if they did just that to the original versions? Say they erased all the garbage mattes and matte lines, fixed all the transparencies and other compositing oddities like disappearing ships, would you honestly turn that down?

[gregmasciola]

Originally Posted by Ryan0503

...What does kill Jedi for me is the "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Its so terribly done and I cringe everytime I hear it.

Me too. What's sad about that, too, is that this was just an audio change, so there's no reason they couldn't give you the option to watch the movie without it with either a separate audio track or seamless branching. If it wasn't for that change, I probably would have kept my Blu-Ray set.

[Ryan0503]

Originally Posted by gregmasciola

Me too. What's sad about that, too, is that this was just an audio change, so there's no reason they couldn't give you the option to watch the movie without it with either a separate audio track or seamless branching. If it wasn't for that change, I probably would have kept my Blu-Ray set.

Unfortuanatly the bluray is the best presentation (AV wise) of the saga so I hang onto the blurays. I hate having to explain and appoligize to ppl when I am showing them the saga lol.

Funny that no one complains about Yoda being replaced in episode I lol. I agree with a lot of the changes but some are just plain wrong lol.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

King, what if they did just that to the original versions? Say they erased all the garbage mattes and matte lines, fixed all the transparencies and other compositing oddities like disappearing ships, would you honestly turn that down?

No I never said I would turn it down. But shouldnt the original shot be preserved? I would be estatic but it still woudnt be what we saw in the theater. I mean it came out the year I died...it should look like the jungle room. Very 70s

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Bruce Campbell

I know it has been gone over to death but if Lucas has just fixed special effects and not added or changed things I don't doubt that none of the anger/disappointment we have now would be there. As it stands now I will take matte lines around the rancor and TIE fighters if I don't have to sit through Jedi Rocks.

But that is the question - when is the effect fixed? There is always something that can be done to fix it - get rid of the matte line around the ship but now it is a little transparent so you fix that but the pilot seems wooden so now you add a little movement but then the droid seems fake so you add a light or two blinking but now that planet behind it seems off so you fix that ... I am sure Lucas thinks he did fix things and just added extras that he couldn't do before.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Ryan0503

Unfortuanatly the bluray is the best presentation (AV wise) of the saga so I hang onto the blurays. I hate having to explain and appoligize to ppl when I am showing them the saga lol.

Funny that no one complains about Yoda being replaced in episode I lol. I agree with a lot of the changes but some are just plain wrong lol.

I'll begrudgingly watch the Blu-rays of Star Wars and Empire, because the new sound mix for SW is beautiful (aside from that weird-ass new Krayt call for Obi-Wan) and Empire's the least-****ed with film anyway, but Jedi's Blu-ray changes are just too damned stupid for my liking, so I put on the 2004 DVD instead.

As for Ep 1, I'd rather have the original Yoda because the old voice doesn't fit the new CG performance, if that makes sense, and the camera blocking is unchanged, i.e. he's still shot like he's a puppet which makes no sense visually. The old puppet looked kinda freaky, but it still had Frank Oz underneath which gives it a kind of tangible feel of performance which the CG redo lacks.

[bongozoid]

Originally Posted by Ryan0503

Funny that no one complains about Yoda being replaced in episode I lol. I agree with a lot of the changes but some are just plain wrong lol.

That would involve people caring about Episode I in the first place...

[svenge]

Originally Posted by bongozoid

That would involve people caring about Episode I in the first place...

[Falaskan]

EP 1 does feel most SW like. It would be amazing actually if it wasn't for Jar Jar. I can handle Jake Lloyd since he's 9, but he's definitely not the best of the final 3 they interviewed for the part!

[Bruce Campbell]

Never got the hate for Jake Loyd and to me his performance was Olivier like compared to Hayden Christensen.

[Howdy]

Nothing would make me happier than to have Disney, with Lucas's approval, change the OT one final time! They should add CGI Yoda to replace the puppet, change Darth Vaders voice by replacing James Earl Jones with a modified Christian Haydens voice, and finally, change the scene with Han and Greedo, so that Han never shoots at all. Greedo's laser blast just ricochets off the wall and he does himself in. All just to piss the whiners off one last time.