Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

Why do you have to start an argument when someone states that they like a certain film?

I have the perfect cure for it

I will open it tomorrow & yes I removed some posts

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by octagon

People don't seem to have too much trouble enjoying talking raccoons or watching the Hulk smash the hell out of Loki so maybe the main problem here isn't the viewers.

Maybe the main problem is simpler than that. Maybe the movies just aren't very good.

Honestly, I think that is part of the basic problem. I mean, Lucas himself has admitted how often he was just killing time, particularly in Episode I, since he really only had one movie worth of story material to spread out.

The underlying factors are 1) it's a story no one but Lucas particularly felt needed to be told (I never was playing Star Wars as a kid and heard anyone say, "Gee, I wonder what Darth Vader was like as a cherub faced child or bratty teen"), and 2) what was there (political drama, etc.) just wasn't very well done political drama.

I'm all for complex politics and subtle arcs - it's just that they aren't there. It's just such a superficial story (largely by necessity in a space opera) that it feels very empty and vapid instead of intriguing in most respects.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

Honestly, I think that is part of the basic problem. I mean, Lucas himself has admitted how often he was just killing time, particularly in Episode I, since he really only had one movie worth of story material to spread out.

The underlying factors are 1) it's a story no one but Lucas particularly felt needed to be told (I never was playing Star Wars as a kid and heard anyone say, "Gee, I wonder what Darth Vader was like as a cherub faced child or bratty teen"), and 2) what was there (political drama, etc.) just wasn't very well done political drama.

I'm all for complex politics and subtle arcs - it's just that they aren't there. It's just such a superficial story (largely by necessity in a space opera) that it feels very empty and vapid instead of intriguing in most respects.

When I was a kid, I wanted to know what was so special about Luke, Leai and Han that they always got caught up in the conflict's main engagements...

Episodes 1, 2 and 3 answered that very well...

[Thomas Guycott]

Except the original trilogy does a fine job explaining that on its own:

-Luke is the son of a Jedi Knight taught by Kenobi and killed by Vader
-Leia is an Imperial senator working for the rebellion and transporting the Death Star plans to Alliance HQ
-Han is a smuggler who got dragged into the whole mess

And the later two reveal that Vader is Luke's father and Leia his sister. The three films reveal and tie everything up.

There's really no revelations the prequel trilogy provides except how the saga's backstory occurs.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

Honestly, I think that is part of the basic problem. I mean, Lucas himself has admitted how often he was just killing time, particularly in Episode I, since he really only had one movie worth of story material to spread out.

The underlying factors are 1) it's a story no one but Lucas particularly felt needed to be told (I never was playing Star Wars as a kid and heard anyone say, "Gee, I wonder what Darth Vader was like as a cherub faced child or bratty teen"), and 2) what was there (political drama, etc.) just wasn't very well done political drama.

I'm all for complex politics and subtle arcs - it's just that they aren't there. It's just such a superficial story (largely by necessity in a space opera) that it feels very empty and vapid instead of intriguing in most respects.

I disagree, I think there's plenty of complexity there and some wonderful thematic allusions throughout, but Lucas' reach exceeded his grasp. He created something so multifaceted that it couldn't really be told through the simplistic means of the space opera, and it didn't help that he kept moving the goalposts anyway with all of the reshoots, i.e. he never knew what the best iteration of the story was, he just kept on nurdling and rewriting until such time as the movie had to be released.

I found that with the OT there was never a sense of a great deal of time passing from movie to movie, whereas so much happens in between each of the prequels and so many new characters get added (especially the villains) they feel very disjointed from one another, like there are movies missing. I know I keep mentioning Clone Wars S6 but it's crazy how many loose ends it ties up, it's basically become Episode 2.5 to me.

[trainreck]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I know I keep mentioning Clone Wars S6 but it's crazy how many loose ends it ties up, it's basically become Episode 2.5 to me.

This is very intriguing to me. I've watched all of the movies more times than I could count but I've never seen any of The Clone Wars. Would watching S6 without the other seasons make sense or would I be lost? I really don't know when I would be able to watch the whole series but I would certainly try to watch S6 if it really adds that much to the story.

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by trainreck

This is very intriguing to me. I've watched all of the movies more times than I could count but I've never seen any of The Clone Wars. Would watching S6 without the other seasons make sense or would I be lost? I really don't know when I would be able to watch the whole series but I would certainly try to watch S6 if it really adds that much to the story.

You can easily watch it alone. It depends more on the movies than the rest of the show. As a series, Clone Wars wraps up in S5. S6 is just the bridge to E3, and it's pretty awesome.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by trainreck

This is very intriguing to me. I've watched all of the movies more times than I could count but I've never seen any of The Clone Wars. Would watching S6 without the other seasons make sense or would I be lost? I really don't know when I would be able to watch the whole series but I would certainly try to watch S6 if it really adds that much to the story.

There are a few Episodes in Season 6 that aren't even needed to bridge the two movies. They are the Banking Episodes. I think the rest (could be wrong) are more central to the movies...

[Geoff D]

But even the S6 banking stuff fills in a question that's always bugged me: how did Palpatine get away with paying for the Clone Army on the quiet? It's not so much something that we can't extrapolate ourselves as viewers - he's the Chancellor, he cooked the books - but the characters themselves don't question it once the Jedi say that they didn't authorise the creation of the Clones. Even if Sifo Dyas was assumed to be acting on his own, where did he get the money to pay for millions of Clones and associated military hardware? We know the cloners' services don't come cheap after what Dex said to Obi-Wan in the diner, so why aren't the Jedi following it up?

Those are rhetorical questions because now we know the answers thanks to Clone Wars S6, but the point is that it's yet another story thread that's never followed up on (or even mentioned again!) in the movies. Again, it's a case of too much story and not enough time.

[Himmel]

Some info on the INTERGALACTIC BANKING CLAN.:


The founding of the IGBC dated back to the creation of the Galactic Republic where it dictated the flow of wealth between the Core Worlds and the Outer Rim Territories. It was the Banking Clan that funded governments, supported settlements and bankrolled countless commerce guilds, trade corporations and shipping cartels.[1] During the time of the Cold War, a proxy conflict between the Sith Empire and Galactic Republic, a group of thieves planned a heist on a Banking Clan vault.[6]

The IGBC was already a powerful institution by 1000 BBY, and was known for being far more honest in transactions than Core-based banks such as on Sestria.[source?] At some point, the Banking Clan established Aargau as one of its key worlds that rested in the Core Worlds boundaries.[7] During the New Sith Wars era, the Sith Lord Qordis embezzled funds from the Brotherhood of Darkness in order to pay for his avarice and kept them in an anonymous account used by the InterGalactic Banking Clan where he stored these funds.[8]

The IGBC was an important part of the Sith's Grand Plan and was used by Sith Lord Hego Damask to finance much of the Plan, including the creation of the secret Army on Kamino, weapons manufacturers for both sides and to ensure the eventual secession movement could maintain an alternative economy. Damask also tutored his friend's son San Hill in preparation for his accession to the Chairmanship of the Clan.[1]

At some point, a vast region of the Tingel Arm became an economic playground divided between the IBC and the Corporate Alliance.[1] It was known to have signed lucrative money-lending programs to large economic bodies such as the Trade Federation and the Techno Union.[2]


Also of note is the fact that the Sith have for along time been able to manipulate them as this conversation reveals:

"The IBC will be essential in financing the war we will slowly foment. We will need the Banking Clan to finance the manufacturers of weapons and to sustain an alternative economy for the eventual enemies of the Republic."―Darth Plagueis to his apprentice, Darth Sidious

[Geoff D]

And there's not so much as a whisper of any of that in the three films.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But even the banking stuff fills in a question that's always bugged me: how did Palpatine get away with paying for the Clone Army on the quiet? It's not so much something that we can't extrapolate ourselves as viewers - he's the Chanceller, he cooked the books - but the characters themselves don't question it once the Jedi say that they didn't authorise the creation of the Clones. Even if Sifo Dyas was acting on his own, where did he get the money to pay for millions of Clones and associated military hardware? We know the cloners' services don't come cheap after what Dex said to Obi-Wan in the diner. Lucas put the thread there but it was never followed up on in the movies. Again, it's a case of too much story and not enough time.

He had the Banking Clan pay for it.
The Banking Clan didn't know what they were paying for though.

At least, that's how I always assumed it.

[Geoff D]

Why does everyone keep bolding their replies to me today like I'm the stupidest guy in the room? Still, if the shoe fits...

Dude, I know that *now* about Palpatine, the point I'm making (clearly not very successfully) is that Lucas didn't bother to tell us in the movies, it was left to a cartoon that came out nearly a decade after the fact.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Why does everyone keep bolding their replies to me today like I'm the stupidest guy in the room? Still, if the shoe fits...

Dude, I know that *now* about Palpatine, the point I'm making (clearly not very successfully) is that Lucas didn't bother to tell us in the movies, it was left to a cartoon that came out nearly a decade after the fact.

I always bold the piece I am directly responding to.
That way, it is easier for not only me to see what I'm talking and responding to in particular, but also for others to follow the conversation.
I meant no offense.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

When I was a kid, I wanted to know what was so special about Luke, Leai and Han that they always got caught up in the conflict's main engagements...

Episodes 1, 2 and 3 answered that very well...

Well, there wasn't a word about Han in the PT, as far as I know - and as far as Luke and Leia, I don't think anything else was revealed in the prequels that we didn't already know from ROTJ. In fact, the only real thing you "learn" about them is that their mother died in childbirth, which actually contradicts the general understanding from watching the OT (which of course is now retconned by fans by means of explanation, even though none actually exists in the films).

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And there's not so much as a whisper of any of that in the three films.

?


The banking clan is represented in the Separatist meetings with Dooku.

[Geoff D]

The banking clan is mentioned, yes. But everything else in that entire post by Terminated is not. They could've been the Pillsbury Doughboy clan for all the difference they made to the story as told in the films, but Lucas kept them there anyway because he knew what role that they played in the wider storyline. Nice for him, but the audience were none the wiser. Same with when he said that the Sifo Dyas mystery would be addressed in the next film, that the questions of Force ghosts would be addressed in the next film etc etc. It all fell by the wayside or got reduced to a simple dialogue scene when he realised that he couldn't cram it all in to one last movie (too much story, not enough time), or worse, when he realised he could fit in more cool chases on giant lizards and stuff.

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The banking clan is mentioned, yes. But everything else in that entire post by Terminated is not. They could've been the Pillsbury Doughboy clan for all the difference they made to the story as told in the films, but Lucas kept them there anyway because he knew what role that they played in the wider storyline. Nice for him, but the audience were none the wiser. Same with when he said that the Sifo Dyas mystery would be addressed in the next film, that the questions of Force ghosts would be addressed in the next film etc etc. It all fell by the wayside or got reduced to a simple dialogue scene when he realised that he couldn't cram it all in to one last movie (too much story, not enough time), or worse, when he realised he could fit in more cool chases on giant lizards and stuff.

You could argue that that's always been Lucas' style with Star Wars. You're just seeing snippets of a bigger universe. I was never bothered by the Sifo-dyas thing because you can infer from the movies that either Palpatine or Dooku used his name following his death and possibly killed him to order the clones. The details are intriguing, but they don't matter much to Anakin's story, so they can be left to the imagination.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It all fell by the wayside or got reduced to a simple dialogue scene when he realised that he couldn't cram it all in to one last movie (too much story, not enough time), or worse, when he realised he could fit in more cool chases on giant lizards and stuff.

Those action figures weren't going to sell themselves! In fact, I think the official motto for the PT could be "When was the last time adherence to continuity and coherent storytelling helped move product?"

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by thegoat

You could argue that that's always been Lucas' style with Star Wars. You're just seeing snippets of a bigger universe. I was never bothered by the Sifo-dyas thing because you can infer from the movies that either Palpatine or Dooku used his name following his death and possibly killed him to order the clones. The details are intriguing, but they don't matter much to Anakin's story, so they can be left to the imagination.

Sure, the point about the universe being bigger than what we see is what I've been repeating over and over. But I never felt like I was missing huge swathes of story with the OT, whereas so much has to happen across the course of the PT (and more years elapse during that trilogy than the OT) and there are so many players in the game it's beyond Lucas' abilities to keep all those plates spinning across three movies. It's too big of a story to tell in just six hours.

Anakin is the through line but it's also very much about the downfall of the Jedi and of the Republic, and reducing Palpatine's grand plan to a few footnotes always sold it short. That's why I'm so glad Clone Wars tied up the loose ends, because it canonically confirmed how wide-ranging Palpatine's corruption really was. And we also get that KILLER stuff with Yoda touring the netherworld of the Force at Qui-Gon's behest, which finally qualifies Yoda's conversation with Obi-Wan in Sith. After years of build up the PT made it seem like getting the ability to commune with the Force was no more difficult than finding a toy in a cereal box.