Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[octagon]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Yes, he should, and he probably has.

And he probably has? All but one of your citations were posted before he joined (in most cases, years before).

What? Do you figure he spent two years lurking in the Masters of the Universe threads before joining?

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

And I know you've seen it too, so stop pretending that it never happened.

About a month ago I said...

Originally Posted by octagon

Again, it's a lot like the 'Lucas raped/ruined my childhood' thing. Over the past couple decades somebody somewhere has probably sincerely and seriously said 'Lucas raped/ruined my childhood' but the people who say 'oh yeah, you see that all the time' are still full of shit.

...and I stand by it.

If anything, the fact that you had to go back six and seven years might make one wonder just whose case you were trying to make.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Personally, I'm above caring what you say about me or to me,...

Oh, clearly.

[Havok83]

Just rewatched A New Hope yesterday! Looked at things with a whole new perspective, having just viewed the prequels. Now onto Empire Strikes Back

[Arawn]

IMO Episode IV saw the most improvement going from DVD to Blu-ray.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

The audio aspect of the BR is overall awesome with ANH, dynamic range is superior with cleaner deeper bass. Wish the other two received as a nice an upgrade with a proper remix.

[Havok83]

I just rewatched RoTJ. I didnt like it the first time I saw it but having just seen the prequels, I have a new appreciation for this film. I still dont care for the Ewoks and thought Vader's turn to the good side was lame, but this film at least has heart and didnt feel soulless like Phantom Menance. Id rank it 4th after A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Sith.

Im kind of late to the SW craze, having only seen the films for the first time 2-3 years but Im kind of on a SW high right now. They finally got me

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by Arawn

IMO Episode IV saw the most improvement going from DVD to Blu-ray.

I noticed that as well. The Blu-Ray of Star Wars does offer a nice improvement in the picture quality.

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

The audio aspect of the BR is overall awesome with ANH, dynamic range is superior with cleaner deeper bass. Wish the other two received as a nice an upgrade with a proper remix.

The 6.1 Mix on the Blu-Ray of Star Wars is a significant improvement over the inferior 6.1 Mix on the 2004 DVD. Even though the Blu-Ray's Audio is superior there are still some flaws that could have been easily fixed.

For TESB and ROTJ, they simply took the 6.1 Mixes from 2004 and made some minor audio changes along with some tweaks here and there.

[SexySamSosa67]

I just don't understand why Ani's wife dies after giving birth. In real life if a woman gives birth to twins, is there a high chance she dies?

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by SexySamSosa67

I just don't understand why Ani's wife dies after giving birth. In real life if a woman gives birth to twins, is there a high chance she dies?

Remember, she "lost the will to live." Evidently giving birth to twins was not enough to make her want to live.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by SexySamSosa67

I just don't understand why Ani's wife dies after giving birth. In real life if a woman gives birth to twins, is there a high chance she dies?

It was a plot contrivance to make the prequels fit with the original trilogy. More poor quality Lucas writing.

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

It was a plot contrivance to make the prequels fit with the original trilogy. More poor quality Lucas writing.

But they didn't fit, since Leia says she knew her mother, but she died when she was really young, and Luke never knew her. in ROTS we see they were both separated from Padme at the same time. There are a few explanations for this, but the truth is Lucas just didn't want Padme to die offscreen.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by balthazar_bee

My goodness. After reading your examples, I was prepared to say "point taken" or some such, then you launched into a paragraph of unwarranted vitriol.

Considering that you were neither quoted nor addressed in that post, it should be clear that any "vitriol" was directed at that other individual who had just made some rather provocative comments which are now deleted... and it is far from unwarranted, there's history there in addition to the recent provocation.

Originally Posted by balthazar_bee

I've never used it, but I'm familiar with it, as I said, primarily as a tool to shut down critical discussion of Lucas's post 1983 output.

And as I've stated, I find that generalization to be invalid, and based upon a falsifiable assertion. I've seen the phrase used that way often enough that I find it incredible that anyone would deny ever seeing it used... but if you're sticking to that story, OK.

The truth is, I don't believe most "apologists" would go there unless they're reasonably provoked. It usually takes more than critique of the movies to get somebody using that "canard", it usually comes as a response-in-kind to personal attacks and aggression or risible hyperbole. It's not being used to "shut down critical discussion", it's being used to return fire in a s**t-fight. Honestly, how many times have you ever seen anybody using that tactic in an argument that either wasn't already out of hand, or where somebody really was trotting out the hyperbole that Lucas had somehow "stolen" or "ruined" their childhood simply by releasing re-edited versions of his films?

Originally Posted by balthazar_bee

In other words, of course I know about the expression, but I haven't directly encountered (online or otherwise) anyone who's articulated that point of view, except those anxious to dismiss anyone critical of some element of the more recent Star Wars endeavours, who hold up the quotation and howl, "Look at what barbarians these prequel haterz are!"

Why would anybody need to use a strawman argument to make a point that is so abundantly self-evident? The out-of-proportion hostile demeanor of most Lucas-bashing is more than enough to validate the complaint. I have never seen anyone use it as reflexive dismissal of reasonable critique, I have only ever seen it applied to someone who was being antagonistic and/or hyperbolic.

Originally Posted by balthazar_bee

At the heart of my point was the idea that there are Star Wars fans out there who take an almost Stalinist approach to defending the series as a whole -- no criticism will be tolerated. Such people find it useful to lump all critics of the prequels and special editions as members of the "childhood rape" brigade.

And do you think that the opposite is not also true? Have you not noticed the presence of members in this forum who lose their minds and go on the attack if anybody says anything positive about anything Lucas did post-1983? People like them deserve to be generalized with connection to that ugly phrase, and many of them have actually used it anyway.

Originally Posted by octagon

If anything, the fact that you had to go back six and seven years might make one wonder just whose case you were trying to make.

Ugh... are you still blabbering at me? It's so sad, the antics that you resort to for attention.
I didn't "have to" go back that far. I simply chose to start as far back as the search engine allowed, and go forward from there. It should say something that the search generated more than the maximum number of pages and got cut off. Notwithstanding, a citation is a citation, they don't "expire" after 5 years. Making such a suggestion is just a further discredit to yourself. Keep trying, heckler, keep trying.

[BluBonnet]

Originally Posted by SexySamSosa67

I just don't understand why Ani's wife dies after giving birth. In real life if a woman gives birth to twins, is there a high chance she dies?

Because she hasn't JUST given birth to twins. She has lost the man she loved to the dark side; she has also seen everything that she fought for - democracy and diplomacy - been completely destroyed, the Jedi order has been completely anhilated and most Jedi Knights slaughtered.

[Agent Bond]

Watching the original films in their theatrical versions makes you appreciate them more. Its amazing what Lucas was able to do with special effects back in the day.

I just don't understand why Ani's wife dies after giving birth. In real life if a woman gives birth to twins, is there a high chance she dies?

Childbirth deaths have dropped dramatically over the years, but the risk is always there. The majority of maternal deaths are due to hemorrhage, infection, and eclampsia or from health complications worsened in pregnancy.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

And do you think that the opposite is not also true? Have you not noticed the presence of members in this forum who lose their minds and go on the attack if anybody says anything positive about anything Lucas did post-1983? People like them deserve to be generalized with connection to that ugly phrase, and many of them have actually used it anyway.

So you're outright admitting that you're indiscriminately lumping in people who disagree with you as being as bad as those who use "that ugly phrase", as you believe they deserve it?

I guess if you wanted to prove the point that you're taking a Stalinist approach to this, you've done quite well! In commemoration of your "achievement", here's a nice logo for you:

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by svenge

So you're outright admitting that you're indiscriminately lumping in people who disagree with you as being as bad as those who use "that ugly phrase", as you believe they deserve it?

No, I didn't say "people who disagree with me". I said "people who lose their minds and go on the attack" if someone disagrees with them, deserves to be negatively generalized. That was a poor attempt at a strawman.

I would have figured you would be the one who wouldn't understand the difference. You've already demonstrated that you believe that you are justified to personally attack and insult anybody who says they like those movies.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I would have figured you would be the one who wouldn't understand the difference. You've already demonstrated that you believe that you are justified to personally attack and insult anybody who says they like those movies.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by svenge

[Show spoiler]

When have I ever attacked someone just for saying that they didn't like some movies? I have only EVER objected to the hostility and personal attacks, and the snarky antics and nauseating passive aggression. I have never insulted or attacked somebody just because they didn't agree with my opinion of a movie.

Again, it would figure you would be the one who doesn't understand the difference. You have never been able to express an opinion on this topic without including personal attacks and generalized insults. You and I are nothing alike.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Again, it would figure you would be the one who doesn't understand the difference. You have never been able to express an opinion on this topic without including personal attacks and generalized insults. You and I are nothing alike.

Whatever lets you sleep at night.

Honestly, if you want to have your opinions mindlessly accepted without anyone applying any critical thought to counter them then perhaps you ought to go to a place more suited to your ilk. I hear there's plenty of free Kool-Aid in the lobby...

[Porco Azzurro]

To reiterate my earlier post, if it needs it, I was referring to when people who don't like George Lucas or things he has done (be it special editions or prequels or anything else) use the term 'rape' in a way that is in my opinion wholly inappropriate.

I think I said I don't lump all people who dislike the special edition changes or the prequel trilogy into that category - though obviously there is a large degree of overlap.

I am bemused by the argument that objecting to the use of such derogatory terms is based on a tiny number of theoretical and/or historical instances. In all honesty I was driven to write my post by reading an example posted in this forum very recently. But I have read and heard statements like it over and over again since 1999 and up to and including 2015. I have no doubt a year has not passed since 1999 that I have heard or read such phrases multiple times.

Perhaps I notice it more because I largely like most (not all) of the SE changes and I love the prequels. I am not calling anyone a liar that just hasn't heard or read people associating Lucas' work with 'rape'. But it's just factually wrong to claim it hasn't happened.

At the end of the day all I'd like is people not to use such offensive hyperbole. It doesn't strengthen any rational argument, regardless of how one feels about anything, I'd argue it does the opposite.

Everyone is perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion they want to about whatever films they want to, but I don't think it's unreasonable to point out there are proportionate ways of expressing those views and there are vile slurs that add nothing to any discussion.

I would never generalise about people who don't like the prequels or special editions all being the same as those who go too far (IMHO) in the way they criticise Lucas, but I think mjbethancourt has made plenty of valid points. There is a certain group of Lucas' critics that make personal attacks with such vitriol that it should be quite clear who and what I'm getting at.

People not accepting that others can like the prequels and that both positions are valid is another issue entirely.

TL;DR version - Reasoned criticism and expression of opinions is fine; vile personal insults are not. So, in peace and with respect, I'd just ask anyone this applies to please don't use the term 'rape' any more when talking about how you don't like a movie or something about it - it's offensive, inaccurate and undermines your argument.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by svenge

Whatever lets you sleep at night.

Honestly, if you want to have your opinions mindlessly accepted without anyone applying any critical thought to counter them then perhaps you ought to go to a place more suited to your ilk. I hear there's plenty of free Kool-Aid in the lobby...

Throw as much critique as you want to, I have no problem with it, I embrace a debate of opinions... just figure out a way to do it without flinging so many personal insults, both explicit and passive-aggressive.

Originally Posted by Porco Azzurro

[Show spoiler]To reiterate my earlier post, if it needs it, I was referring to when people who don't like George Lucas or things he has done (be it special editions or prequels or anything else) use the term 'rape' in a way that is in my opinion wholly inappropriate.

I think I said I don't lump all people who dislike the special edition changes or the prequel trilogy into that category - though obviously there is a large degree of overlap.

I am bemused by the argument that objecting to the use of such derogatory terms is based on a tiny number of theoretical and/or historical instances. In all honesty I was driven to write my post by reading an example posted in this forum very recently. But I have read and heard statements like it over and over again since 1999 and up to and including 2015. I have no doubt a year has not passed since 1999 that I have heard or read such phrases multiple times.

Perhaps I notice it more because I largely like most (not all) of the SE changes and I love the prequels. I am not calling anyone a liar that just hasn't heard or read people associating Lucas' work with 'rape'. But it's just factually wrong to claim it hasn't happened.

At the end of the day all I'd like is people not to use such offensive hyperbole. It doesn't strengthen any rational argument, regardless of how one feels about anything, I'd argue it does the opposite.

Everyone is perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion they want to about whatever films they want to, but I don't think it's unreasonable to point out there are proportionate ways of expressing those views and there are vile slurs that add nothing to any discussion.

I would never generalise about people who don't like the prequels or special editions all being the same as those who go too far (IMHO) in the way they criticise Lucas, but I think mjbethancourt has made plenty of valid points. There is a certain group of Lucas' critics that make personal attacks with such vitriol that it should be quite clear who and what I'm getting at.

People not accepting that others can like the prequels and that both positions are valid is another issue entirely.

TL;DR version - Reasoned criticism and expression of opinions is fine; vile personal insults are not. So, in peace and with respect, I'd just ask anyone this applies to please don't use the term 'rape' any more when talking about how you don't like a movie or something about it - it's offensive, inaccurate and undermines your argument.

Sir, I completely agree, word-and-letter. I wish I could have said it myself, half as well as you just did.