Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Context is key, my main man. Transposing a battle from ice to fire is one thing, as is turning a city in the clouds into a city under the sea, but having a wistful young 'un who's very handy with tech stuff who dreams of a brighter future who's trapped on a desert dustball of a planet repeated three times in seven movies is kinda pushing it, at least it is from my interesting perspective.

I dunno, I don't really care that The Force Awakens seems to mirror A New Hope. The Phantom Menace did the same thing but no one seemed to complain about it until years later, and even then it was more or less about the quality of the movie more than it mirroring ANH. Some even thought the mirroring was 'brilliant' work by Mr. Lucas.

Anyway, I loved TFA. Could not care less that is follows a familiar storyline. But I can see how you would find the circumstances being repeated three times a row as tiresome. I get that.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Jay444

I dunno, I don't really care that The Force Awakens seems to mirror A New Hope. The Phantom Menace did the same thing but no one seemed to complain about it until years later, and even then it was more or less about the quality of the movie more than it mirroring ANH. Some even thought the mirroring was 'brilliant' work by Mr. Lucas.

Anyway, I loved TFA. Could not care less that is follows a familiar storyline. But I can see how you would find the circumstances being repeated three times a row as tiresome. I get that.

And that's my point. It's not that Lucas didn't 'rhyme' the shit out of the OT - I've made the point on many, many occasions that Phantom Menace plays like a megamix of Star Wars and Jedi - but to have such specific circumstances as 'the downtrodden sun-baked kid who just wants to be freeeeeee!' played out yet again in the movie that starts the third trilogy leaves me cold. I get that it's a classic Campbellian trope, fair enough, but why not change it up and put Rey on a different type of planet at least?

And as much as Lucas done ****ed up the execution of the prequels, there isn't a frame of those movies that he didn't obsess over and I respect that, whereas TFA still feels like clockwork Star Wars to me. Sure, it's got plenty of similar components put together in a very charming, good-looking way but there's no heart or soul that I can discern, nothing that reaches me emotionally. [edit] Heck, at least the prequels provoke feelings in me no matter whether they've positive or negative, but my utter indifference to TFA is....disturbing.

[BMM]

Originally Posted by Fabs

Hey, if you like lazy remakes, enjoy. Whatever floats your boat.

I'll take a well done remake over the s**t sandwiches that were the prequels any day.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Context is key, my main man. Transposing a battle from ice to fire is one thing, as is turning a city in the clouds into a city under the sea, but having a wistful young 'un who's very handy with tech stuff who dreams of a brighter future who's trapped on a desert dustball of a planet repeated three times in seven movies is kinda pushing it, at least it is from my interesting perspective.

I'm not so sure context is key in these conversations. Far more often than not, in these conversations context arguments very much have a post hoc feel to them. People who are okay with the repetitious elements of various elements look for reasons to be okay with them when that's not really necessary.

I wasn't okay with most of the repetition in Jedi. I thought the trench runs on the speeder bikes were boring and I thought the trench run inside a Death Star was even more boring and I thought the fact that there was another Death Star in the first place was flat out ridiculous.

Fast forward thirty-some years and I was pretty okay with a trench run inside a Star Destroyer and I thought the Uber Death Star was actually pretty cool.

And that's fine, I think. I don't need to rationalize the fact that one set worked and one set didn't.

Why was I okay with the seismic charge sequence in Clones when it was basically just a rehash of Empire's asteroid chase? Cause it rhymed? No, cause it was pretty awesome. And that's reason enough to like it, I think.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And that's my point. It's not that Lucas didn't 'rhyme' the shit out of the OT - I've made the point on many, many occasions that Phantom Menace plays like a megamix of Star Wars and Jedi - but to have such specific circumstances as 'the downtrodden sun-baked kid who just wants to be freeeeeee!' played out yet again in the movie that starts the third trilogy leaves me cold. I get that it's a classic Campbellian trope, fair enough, but why not change it up and put Rey on a different type of planet at least?

And as much as Lucas done ****ed up the execution of the prequels, there isn't a frame of those movies that he didn't obsess over and I respect that, whereas TFA still feels like clockwork Star Wars to me. Sure, it's got plenty of similar components put together in a very charming, good-looking way but there's no heart or soul that I can discern, nothing that reaches me emotionally. [edit] Heck, at least the prequels provoke feelings in me no matter whether they've positive or negative, but my utter indifference to TFA is....disturbing.

My experience with TFA couldn't be more different. To me, there was more heart and more 'Star Wars' in Rey's expression when she looked at the old woman across the table than in Eps I and II combined. The three prequels had their moments (most of them in Sith) but for me things like the hanger escape and the dogfights completely nailed that Star Warsey feel. There was a sense of fun and adventure about them that was almost totally lacking in the franchise since Empire.

But that's me.

[Shalashaska]

TFA has a lot of heart. The most heart since Empire.

These people loved Star Wars and made a good Star Wars film, full stop.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Shalashaska

TFA has a lot of heart. The most heart since Empire.

These people loved Star Wars and made a good Star Wars film, full stop.

Agreed. To me I thought it was as good as A New Hope, but not quite as perfect as The Empire Strikes Back.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And that's my point. It's not that Lucas didn't 'rhyme' the shit out of the OT - I've made the point on many, many occasions that Phantom Menace plays like a megamix of Star Wars and Jedi - but to have such specific circumstances as 'the downtrodden sun-baked kid who just wants to be freeeeeee!' played out yet again in the movie that starts the third trilogy leaves me cold. I get that it's a classic Campbellian trope, fair enough, but why not change it up and put Rey on a different type of planet at least?

And as much as Lucas done ****ed up the execution of the prequels, there isn't a frame of those movies that he didn't obsess over and I respect that, whereas TFA still feels like clockwork Star Wars to me. Sure, it's got plenty of similar components put together in a very charming, good-looking way but there's no heart or soul that I can discern, nothing that reaches me emotionally. [edit] Heck, at least the prequels provoke feelings in me no matter whether they've positive or negative, but my utter indifference to TFA is....disturbing.

Did you ever watch TFA again on Blu-ray after your first viewing? Presumably if you have, it didn't go down any better the second time. It's funny, I bunged on TPM last night and watched the first half, and really enjoyed it. I was really paying attention to just how much imagination and creativity was on display. Yes it's flawed, but damn, thinking about TFA again afterwards just seems like a rather bland memory. I don't strongly dislike it or anything, it's enjoyable enough but like James Cameron, I need to see where the next 2 films go with it. Please have some visual creativity, I really wish George could have at least been involved in that regard.

[stvn1974]

If Luke gets frozen in carbonite at the end of Episode 8 and they have to go save him in episode 9 I will still take it over the prequels.

[Shalashaska]

If there wasn't an Episode 7, I'd still take it over the prequels.

[MechaGodzilla]

All seven films we've got up to this point have felt like they have "heart" to me. I have my issues with most of them (only really ANH and TESB are "masterpiece level" IMO), but I've never doubted it was a sincere, heartfelt effort by the people behind the camera, telling the story.

Always some degree of fan/crowd-pleasing in mind as well, regardless of whether it was Lucas or Abrams/Kennedy in charge, but at the same time definitely not just a purely cold, sterile exercise in commercialism.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by Shalashaska

Star Wars was made to be like the old adventure serials he grew up with. Once he saw how unbelievably successful the film was, he went for merchandising rights.

Empire had a whole different creative team behind it with Irvin Kershner and Larry Kasdan. They clearly had different views to George, and while many consider it to be the best in the franchise, George called it the worst entry. Probably because it was too dark and he had the least contribution.

Once it was solidified that Star Wars as a brand was here to stay after the overwhelming success of the last two films, he came on to Jedi sacrificing his integrity as a filmmaker so he could sell as many toys as possible. Rather than having Wookiees or the proposed reptilian Lizard creatures fighting the Empire on Endor, he created a race of literal teddy bear Native Americans. When Harrison Ford and Larry Kasdan fought to kill Han, George refused. Ford said in 2005 his reasons were "dead Han toys wouldn't sell". Even the general cinematography and look of the film almost look TV movie-ish at times. The tone of the film is juiced up on wacky happy juice, the characters are cartoons. The whole ending sequence feels diluted rather than "EPIC" as George was going for with the three different action sequences.

And the "prequels are for kids" thing? Makes no sense, watch Revenge of the Sith. My little sister couldn't sleep for days after watching Anakin burn in lava while his whole world came crashing down, or after seeing him chop up the villagers who raped and killed his mom in the previous film. It's all just for toys, no "artistry" about it.

If you wanna complain about TFA having a similar story to Star Wars, I think you got your priorities way out of wack.

No, no! He actually made the deals for merchandising in exchange for a percentage of profits before Star Wars came out. I also think you're arguing with someone who isn't making the points I'm making. I like The Force Awakens. I think they intended to make a movie true to the spirit of the originals and largely succeeded.

Also... think about what you just said. Anakin burning in lava and killing the people who killed his mom couldn't be farther from the intent of making toys. I think Lucas had every intent of making money off of toys to keep his companies afloat. I also think he had something very specific to say with the prequels. He didn't execute as well as he could have, but to miss the points he was trying to make WHILE also trying to sell toys is a little short-sighted in my opinion. In fact, I applaud his acumen in trying to sell the message he was trying to sell to little kids to make them grow up to be good people. They are absolutely for little kids- though my daughter has to wait till she's older to see Revenge of the Sith. These are exactly the messages kids need to hear. Old folk tales and fairy tales that have survived have come to us from cultures that understood that.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Context is key, my main man. Transposing a battle from ice to fire is one thing, as is turning a city in the clouds into a city under the sea, but having a wistful young 'un who's very handy with tech stuff who dreams of a brighter future who's trapped on a desert dustball of a planet repeated three times in seven movies is kinda pushing it, at least it is from my interesting perspective.

I don't recall Luke being particularly handy with tech stuff. Farm stuff, perhaps. And maybe the equivalent of a kid knowing how to keep their runaround on the road.

Plus Luke was always looking away to the horizon and trying to negotiate his path to personal glory. His instinct was for adventure but dutifully stayed by his foster parents side to help them with their farm until he could gain independence from them.

Rey is waiting for her family's return, in spite of all indications being that it is a vain hope. Any notion of adventure that she has is in the film is only awakened when she comes into contact with BB-8 and Finn. But her instinct is still to wait, which puzzles those who come in to contact with her and have seen that she is capable of self actualisation. It pointedly doesn't add up.

The other clear departure in her story so far, compared with Luke's, is that she is caught up in a convergence of circumstances which propel her on her journey, against her conscious judgement, without a mentor encouraging her to recognise and fulfil her destiny, yet in doing so she appears to behave instinctively. Like it's not her conscious will.

Now that's very interesting to me.

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by Martoto

I don't recall Luke being particularly handy with tech stuff. Farm stuff, perhaps. And maybe the equivalent of a kid knowing how to keep their runaround on the road.

Plus Luke was always looking away to the horizon and trying to negotiate his path to personal glory. His instinct was for adventure but dutifully stayed by his foster parents side to help them with their farm until he could gain independence from them.

Rey is waiting for her family's return, in spite of all indications being that it is a vain hope. Any notion of adventure that she has is in the film is only awakened when she comes into contact with BB-8 and Finn. But her instinct is still to wait, which puzzles those who come in to contact with her and have seen that she is capable of self actualisation. It pointedly doesn't add up.

The other clear departure in her story so far, compared with Luke's, is that she is caught up in a convergence of circumstances which propel her on her journey, against her conscious judgement, without a mentor encouraging her to recognise and fulfil her destiny, yet in doing so she appears to behave instinctively. Like it's not her conscious will.

Now that's very interesting to me.

You know the movie's super derivative when you need to differentiate it at such a level.

If Marvel is anything to go by we should expect more of the same. Hope everyone liked TFA because we're gonna get a dozen of it one after another.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by kidglov3s

You know the movie's super derivative when you need to differentiate it at such a level.

Or maybe it says something about the audience if they don't appreciate the difference, or need to keep the discussion at a superficial level to support their assessment. Particularly character motivation. If the main characters original motivaions are opposites then how can they be "super derivative"?

Key starting point for me was we were introduced to Luke living a relatively sheltered life with his foster mother calling after him, telling him what kind of features she'd like on whatever domestic appliance they're about to shop for.

We meet Rey scavenging and living in junk before hauling it across the desert, scrubing it till it's worth one quarter portion of filthy looking bread.

If you think that's just the same thing or ignore it then there are many, many things that will pass you by, which may be important or not.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Did you ever watch TFA again on Blu-ray after your first viewing? Presumably if you have, it didn't go down any better the second time. It's funny, I bunged on TPM last night and watched the first half, and really enjoyed it. I was really paying attention to just how much imagination and creativity was on display. Yes it's flawed, but damn, thinking about TFA again afterwards just seems like a rather bland memory. I don't strongly dislike it or anything, it's enjoyable enough but like James Cameron, I need to see where the next 2 films go with it. Please have some visual creativity, I really wish George could have at least been involved in that regard.

Yes, I watched it again a couple of days ago and posted my thoughts in the TFA thread. I think the point about seeing where the story goes is a very good one, I was thinking about that earlier. Example: I really didn't like Avengers when I first saw it, but Age of Ultron fills in so many gaps in the characterisation of folks like Hawkeye and Widow that I can now enjoy Avengers for what it is. Hell, I caught a few minutes of it on TV at Christmas and I was quoting lines at the screen so clearly it's wormed its way into my brain one way or another, and fingers crossed that the rest of the SW sequels do the same thing: give this story and these characters more weight and gravitas.

I still think part of my 'meh'-ness towards TFA comes down to this first movie in the new trilogy actually breaking from traditional 'first part' storytelling (see? It's not all a rehash ) and presenting a narrative which leaves the audience (well, fussy old me) with waaaaay more questions than answers. TFA is not just a riff on Star Wars but Empire as well, and having watched it again I was surprised at how much it took from the latter e.g. Rey's 'cave' moment in Maz's castle, Luke's lightsaber being plucked from the snow by use of the Force, the muted, open-ended finale rather than a victory celebration etc.

The great trick of the first part in a trilogy is that it presents a story that works so well as a standalone piece while also laying groundwork for more to come, and therein lies my problem with TFA having no heart: it feels like an extended 'greatest hits' trailer that's frantically putting down road for the next movie to follow instead of being a piece of storytelling in its own right. Sure, this is long-form storytelling and I do understand that this is movie #7 and I do understand that more is yet to come, but that still doesn't stop me from feeling very dismissive of TFA as it stands. Fingers crossed Ep VIII brings me in from the cold, I'll just have to remember to cut open a tauntaun to keep me warm in the meantime.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, I watched it again a couple of days ago and posted my thoughts in the TFA thread. I think the point about seeing where the story goes is a very good one, I was thinking about that earlier. Example: I really didn't like Avengers when I first saw it, but Age of Ultron fills in so many gaps in the characterisation of folks like Hawkeye and Widow that I can now enjoy Avengers for what it is. Hell, I caught a few minutes of it on TV at Christmas and I was quoting lines at the screen so clearly it's wormed its way into my brain one way or another, and fingers crossed that the rest of the SW sequels do the same thing: give this story and these characters more weight and gravitas.

I still think part of my 'meh'-ness towards TFA comes down to this first movie in the new trilogy actually breaking from traditional 'first part' storytelling (see? It's not all a rehash ) and presenting a narrative which leaves the audience (well, fussy old me) with waaaaay more questions than answers. TFA is not just a riff on Star Wars but Empire as well, and having watched it again I was surprised at how much it took from the latter e.g. Rey's 'cave' moment in Maz's castle, Luke's lightsaber being plucked from the snow by use of the Force, the muted, open-ended finale rather than a victory celebration etc.

The great trick of the first part in a trilogy is that it presents a story that works so well as a standalone piece while also laying groundwork for more to come, and therein lies my problem with TFA having no heart: it feels like an extended 'greatest hits' trailer that's frantically putting down road for the next movie to follow instead of being a piece of storytelling in its own right. Sure, this is long-form storytelling and I do understand that this is movie #7 and I do understand that more is yet to come, but that still doesn't stop me from feeling very dismissive of TFA as it stands. Fingers crossed Ep VIII brings me in from the cold, I'll just have to remember to cut open a tauntaun to keep me warm in the meantime.

I'll go and read your post in the TFA thread but I agree with basically everything you typed. I think Rey's backstory will have a huge effect on my opinion of TFA. Her being able to pilot the Falcon as proficiently as Han, doing Jedi mind tricks on storm troopers, pulling lightsabers towards her from the snow and then using one to fight the bad buy without the audience having seen any training or knowledge of this is frustrating to me. Ok, so the Force awoke in her but I hope the next 2 manage to explain her background in a satisfying way.

In terms of storytelling, I find the natural progression from Episode 6 to 7 just doesn't work for me. It feels like we need a trilogy in between. Each previous Episode continues the story naturally from how the story ended in the previous one without feeling like we missed a huge amount of important character information. Episode 7 feels like it resets things to me, without being a natural continuation. I would have preferred to have seen the backstory we heard about in TFA as the actual Episode 7.

[Geoff D]

One thing I did notice from Rey's fighting style is that she uses a lot of thrusts like Palpatine does in Sith...perhaps she's not related to the Skywalker clan after all? And that really WOULD cast the events of TFA in a whole new light.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Yeah, well that's one of the rumours that she might be his daughter or related. One of the new books has something about a previous Imperial base on Jakku and Palpy is looking for something very important. I think they might be digging for something or there are some kind of experiments going on. Sorry for the vagueness but there's obviously some significance with Jakku and Rey being there.

EDIT: Of course Rey would be too young to be Palpy's daughter, I'm forgetting the 30 year gap and she's only about 20. Here's a rough synopsis of the Jakku thing if you're interested: http://dorksideoftheforce.com/2016/0...an-we-thought/

[Arawn]

You know that thrusting thing's gotta be hereditary.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Yeah, well that's one of the rumours that she might be his daughter or related. One of the new books has something about a previous Imperial base on Jakku and Palpy is looking for something very important. I think they might be digging for something or there are some kind of experiments going on. Sorry for the vagueness but there's obviously some significance with Jakku and Rey being there.

EDIT: Of course Rey would be too young to be Palpy's daughter, I'm forgetting the 30 year gap and she's only about 20. Here's a rough synopsis of the Jakku thing if you're interested: http://dorksideoftheforce.com/2016/0...an-we-thought/

It'd be a terrific twist though: the scion of Palpatine ends up being good whilst Han and Leia's son is the bad guy, and both will have to battle their latent urges to pull to one side or the other - they may even switch places by the end of the trilogy (though I don't think Disney would have the balls to turn Rey to the dark side). And the thing about her vision when she touches Luke's lightsaber is that this 'saber has been used for great evil (having been Anakin's when he became Vader) as well as good, so it could speak to her from either perspective.