Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

Here's a good video about that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tnqFjTg5Zg

That actually makes a lot of sense.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by octagon

Decades. Yes.

He knew she was pregnant but didn't learn she was carrying two little bundles of potentially turnable joy until decades later.



Right. Because a galaxy with laser swords and hyperdrives probably hasn't mastered something as complex as an ultrasound.

This whole storyline is ridiculously implausible.

It's obvious this has greatly niggled you so nothing will remedy that (I know what it's like when I get a bee in my Star Wars bonnet ) but some women carry to term without even realising they're pregnant, so stranger things have happened. Not saying that's apples to apples, but still.

As for 'did they know?', there's a lovely moment between Anakin and Padme which was shot but not used, where Padme says that she can feel that it's a girl and Anakin says no, it's definitely a boy. I know that's not exactly ultrasound but it would've been a nice touch and for the life of me I don't get why Lucas cut it.

[Porco Azzurro]

Let's review the scene.

Medical droid:"Medically, she's completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her."

Hold the front page! Small medical outpost is not equal to task of diagnosing the consequences of powerful, galaxy-enslaving Sith Lords with dark supernatural powers.

But does that mean she is dying?! I don't know if that means she is actually dy--

Obi-wan:"She's dying?!"

Oh thanks Obi-wan... I was wondering...

Medical droid: "WE DON'T KNOW WHY".

Oh no, it doesn't know why! That means she is dying! But the reason is unclear, like it said before when it said "for reasons we cant explain"! It can't explain! And it doesn't know why!

Medical droid: "She's lost the will to live"

Oh well, that clears that up, she lost the will to live, that's why she's dying. The droid just explained it after all. So no further thought or debate is required. It said she was losing the will to live, then she died, so that is the only possible explanation the film has given us. It's a medical droid, it obviously knows 100% what it is talking about, after all, it's not like it just said, in the same scene, that it can't explain and doesn't know why she is dying or anything... It must be Because earlier Padmé said Anakin was breaking her heart. That sounds medical-ish I guess, it's a vital organ and stuff after all.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's obvious this has greatly niggled you so nothing will remedy that (I know what it's like when I get a bee in my Star Wars bonnet )...

Part of the reason it goes beyond normal eye-roll level annoyance is what I said earlier about it being in service of a terrible plot choice but on a broader level, that terrible plot choice wasn't just a terrible plot choice. It also took me out what was - in many ways despite itself - a pretty good end to a pretty good movie.

It's very frustrating in that sense.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As for 'did they know?', there's a lovely moment between Anakin and Padme which was shot but not used, where Padme says that she can feel that it's a girl and Anakin says no, it's definitely a boy. I know that's not exactly ultrasound but it would've been a nice touch and for the life of me I don't get why Lucas cut it.

Well, to be fair, he did have to make room for like ten saber duels

[Shin sam]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Decades?
No. Padme' told anakin that she was pregnant.
Not even she knew she was having twins though.

Wait? When???

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Shin sam

Wait? When???

Revenge of the Sith, when they land on Coruscant after rescuing Palps. She's hiding behind a pillar waiting for Anakin, and she tells him the news.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by octagon

Part of the reason it goes beyond normal eye-roll level annoyance is what I said earlier about it being in service of a terrible plot choice but on a broader level, that terrible plot choice wasn't just a terrible plot choice. It also took me out what was - in many ways despite itself - a pretty good end to a pretty good movie.

It's very frustrating in that sense.

No worries.

Well, to be fair, he did have to make room for like ten saber duels

Indeed. Same reason for not having the 'dawn of the rebellion' sub plot in the final movie, as clearly the lengthy chase between Obi-Wan and Grievous was FAR more important.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by octagon

Agreed. And I always kind of shake my head when people argue that changing this scene doesn't really change anything anyway because that just raises the question 'then why change it'.

It's certainly no more aesthetically pleasing. Quite the contrary.

So if there's no substantive change then what the hell was the point in the first place.

To me the shot was coming regardless. So whether it was "cold blooded" or John Wayne (as Lucas puts it) it doesn't make that much difference.

However, it changes the story for me, but in a good way that aligns with the wimp in love in ESB.

When Han leaves in the new version he does so because he feels the cause is futile. Not just for himself, but because he perhaps fought that battle before in a Rick from Casablanca way. This would explain a love sick puppy, or his settling down in the later films.

So quite simply, when Greedo fires off a warning shot (that is how I see it, not a miss as some fans like to call it), Han shoots to kill, because you don't point a gun unless you intend to hit the target. That is the John Wayne code. So gun ready is the practical move (abeit very risky if one is waiting for honor).

Many times over Han takes a sensible route and changes his mind all the time once he surveys the situation analytically (trying to turn falcoln around, staying put after old man plan is executed about turning off tractor beam but still calculating, knowing a meal ticket in saving princess but also looking for possible rebel protection).

So in retrospect, I see two versions of the film. Star Wars in original form as a stand alone film, where no other film has the distinction which has Han as the rogue smuggler (who I would argue comes back at the end not only for reward, but does so to bang the princess, and to get back at the Empire), or Han the John Wayne character that is part of a much bigger story that has honor, but it was buried in a cloud of cynicism based upon being burned a few too many times.

To me "Empire is better than Star Wars fans (not me)" will want that character to allign somewhere in between the two extremes I propose.

By the way, I have enjoyed this disussion a lot and I appreciate the cvility and I am trying to curb sarcasm a great deal.

I just see it differently and why Lucas did it

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Martoto

I someone asks you to talk about your mother, they expect you to talk about the mother that raised you by default. They wouldn't specify "real mother" in order to get you to talk about the mother that raised, as opposed to some other mother.

While I conceded that he meant bilogical mother, I was proposing the idea that someone knowing her situation could be saying the real mother is the one that raised you vs the one that just popped you out and did nothing more.

While Padme lost the baby because of a nutty husband who was influenced by one of if nit the most evil characters, the facts are that it is nothing compared to the sacrifice in the years to come as a stepparent/god parent, watever you call it.

So just my point of view, and I can't assign absolutes because we truly don't know what was in Lucas head at the end. Iam sure more tinkering was to come to make it clearer.

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

This isn't Last Year at Marienbad, we shouldn't have to twist logic so the movie makes sense. That scene in Jedi is important, it's there because it humanizes their plight. We can't relate to using the force, or wielding lightsabres or space travel, but every audience member can relate to having or not having a mother. It's good screen writing as it also puts into perspective what Luke is dealing with and why going after his father is important. If Leia's memories are just "force" nonsense that we now have to retroactively explain away the inconsistencies with Luke's experience without any guidance by the films themselves, then the entire scene in Jedi is meaningless.

I just disregard the PT anyway as it's such a colossal mess from beginning to end.

Except Leia remembering Padmé via the Force is entirely consistent with her abilities in previous films of the saga, including (as someone mentioned) ESB, where she empathically senses Luke's distress following his duel with Vader. It's not twisting logic when the molecular narrative-fabric was right there all along, and remains consistent from one film to the next. It's also a good thing for the viewer to put a bit of thought into stuff like this occasionally without having it explicitly spelled out every time.

[dallywhitty]

Leia remembered her mother because at that moment in time, nobody had come up with the 'Padme dies in childbirth' plot yet. It's as simple as that. Folks can try to rationalise it all they mind and insist that Leia was experiencing Force memories or some shit, but it all comes down to George retconning via the prequels because consistency was never his strong point.

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by dallywhitty

Leia remembered her mother because at that moment in time, nobody had come up with the 'Padme dies in childbirth' plot yet. It's as simple as that. Folks can try to rationalise it all they mind and insist that Leia was experiencing Force memories or some shit, but it all comes down to George retconning via the prequels because consistency was never his strong point.

What are you talking about? ESB had already established that Leia was Force-sensitive, and this was a logical, rational extension of that. It's not after-the-fact rationalizing for a creator to develop and refine his or her ideas in this fashion; it's how the creative process works. Everything regarding her abilities in ROTJ and ROTS were consistent and reasonable extrapolations.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Lionel Horsepackage

Except Leia remembering Padmé via the Force is entirely consistent with her abilities in previous films of the saga, including (as someone mentioned) ESB, where she empathically senses Luke's distress following his duel with Vader. It's not twisting logic when the molecular narrative-fabric was right there all along, and remains consistent from one film to the next. It's also a good thing for the viewer to put a bit of thought into stuff like this occasionally without having it explicitly spelled out every time.

Non real world phenomenon absolutely does need to be spelled out when contextualizing glaring continuity errors, it's extremely lazy writing to do otherwise. And as the above poster points out, this was in no way the plan while writing Jedi, which is why all bending over backwards to explain away the inconsistencies is happening.

I wish the fans of the PT would have written it as they are far more creative in defending it than Lucas was in writing it.

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

Non real world phenomenon absolutely does need to be spelled out when contextualizing glaring continuity errors, it's extremely lazy writing to do otherwise. And as the above poster points out, this was in no way the plan while writing Jedi, which is why all bending over backwards to explain away the inconsistencies is happening.

I wish the fans of the PT would have written it as they are far more creative in defending it than Lucas was in writing it.

How is Leia using the Force to remember her mother a "continuity error"? I think you're really reaching, here.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Lionel Horsepackage

How is Leia using the Force to remember her mother a "continuity error"? I think you're really reaching, here.

Because that's not how it was explained in Jedi, it was a well crafted moment to humanize the struggles of characters in a world the audience is not part of, it is absolutely essential that it is taken at face value or that exchange loses its meaning. It's only reaching to assume Kasdan and the other writers were thinking Leia only had "force imprints" of her mother, that's absurd.

[startrekkin58]

Maybe Padme was originally carrying one baby, possibly Leia, but when Anakin was lost to the Dark Side, the Force conjured up Luke inside her to balance everything out, which unfortunately is responsible for killing Padme in the process?

[Caseyscott]

I mean, she even says her mom died when she was very young, how can you write those lines while thinking she was died at birth? It makes absolutely no sense!!

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

I mean, she even says her mom died when she was very young, how can you write those lines while thinking she was died at birth? It makes absolutely no sense!!

I know -- because "at birth" couldn't possibly be equivalent to "very young," could it? ::le sigh::

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

Because that's not how it was explained in Jedi, it was a well crafted moment to humanize the struggles of characters in a world the audience is not part of, it is absolutely essential that it is taken at face value or that exchange loses its meaning. It's only reaching to assume Kasdan and the other writers were thinking Leia only had "force imprints" of her mother, that's absurd.

Wait, so you need everything explained to you 100% literally, and everything in life has to line up 100% perfectly? Because that's not the way the real world works, and it's not how Lucas chose to handle this particular story-point, either. For many people, it adds a nice bit of subtlety to Leia's personal history.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

Because that's not how it was explained in Jedi, it was a well crafted moment to humanize the struggles of characters in a world the audience is not part of, it is absolutely essential that it is taken at face value or that exchange loses its meaning. It's only reaching to assume Kasdan and the other writers were thinking Leia only had "force imprints" of her mother, that's absurd.

It is ONLY reaching?

When I hear people say that Lucas was "extremely lazy writing" while ignoring the awesome universe he created (which an early script outline I read actually outlines the entire 6 films in the 80's. Right??? Anybody got that??), I am put off.

The force influence is in every film. It is there when Obi Wan feels it, and there when Leia has it. If anything was "retconned" it was giving her these things like being a sister, or having the force ability when the first film never even hints at it (does it??).

Obviously things change after the story is expanded like any writer tends to do because to error is human.

I think picking on Leia's "images" is a very small thing and is easily explained using the information given in Empire.

It is like griping about Obi saying that Anakon was a great pilot when he knew him. He was, and it is obvious when it came to the pod races and his stellar ability as that pilot.

[dallywhitty]

They should have a scene in Episode VIII in which Luke calls out Leia for lying to him, and then she can tell him that what she told him was true 'from a certain point of view.'