Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

'The facts don't support it??' Find me a FACT that Greedo did purposely miss then we'll talk about facts. Again the FACT that Greedo happened to shoot near the area where Han's hand was does not mean that's where he was aiming. How do you know he's not a bad shot?? Plus we never even got a backstory on Greedo. Perhaps something happened that actually preceded these events that made him have it in for Solo. Again we don't know and likely never will. There's always speculation but again there is enough evidence to support both our claims. I'm firm on sticking with my view all the same.

PS I never called you a troll

Maybe Disney will make a stand-alone film about Greedo.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Maybe Disney will make a stand-alone film about Greedo.

Yeah because a back story is ike the devil made him do it proposition. What is likely vs figments of wild imagination.

The funny thing about debates like his is that it causes me to want to see all the films again.

All debate aside. The Han stand alone film should be interesting. I always felt that Greedo and Han knew each other well. Han being the ONLY ONE that shot Greedo was borne out of a frustration that came to a peak of a long past together IMHO. That ship comment has great acting.

This is why Star Wars as a stand alone film nixes all. Part of me never wants to know why or how. The acting in the first film in the context of that universe is so much more than what came after.

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

'The facts don't support it??' Find me a FACT that Greedo did purposely miss then we'll talk about facts.

Again I did. The gun was pointed away from Han before he fired as opposed to going weird after the fact.

[Geoff D]

Well, to go from flogging one dead horse to another, the usage of [ROGUE ONE SPOILERS]

[Show spoiler]actual footage from the original Star Wars of Gold Leader and Red Leader

should prove beyond doubt that there's nothing for Fox and LFL/Disney to sort out regarding a re-release of the originals. Yes, I know it's not the EXACT same situation but LFL/Disney owns this stuff, period. All Fox are there to do is facilitate their master's wishes.

[bobbyh64]

I must say I can't believe all the analyzing that ElvisForever is doing over a shot that flashes by in 8 frames. I decided to see how close Greedo's shot would've been if Han hadn't moved his head so I combined the two frames together.

First, here is a picture before anyone shoots:

Han Before Shot.jpg

Now here's a picture after they both shoot:

Han After Shot.jpg

Now here's a picture of how it would've looked if Han hadn't moved his head:

Han If He Didn't Move.jpg

Yes, Greedo still would've missed, but that looks pretty damn close to me. To assume it was a warning shot is absurd. The fact that it goes by in 8 frames, which is 1/3 of a second, there's no way in hell anyone would be able to notice it was a warning shot unless it was incredibly obvious and there's no way in hell anyone would notice exactly how far the shot is from Han's head because it's too fast. Most people seeing it for the first time probably think they both shot at the exact same time anyway.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

I must say I can't believe all the analyzing that ElvisForever is doing over a shot that flashes by in 8 frames. I decided to see how close Greedo's shot would've been if Han hadn't moved his head so I combined the two frames together.

First, here is a picture before anyone shoots:

Attachment 157088

Now here's a picture after they both shoot:

Attachment 157089

Now here's a picture of how it would've looked if Han hadn't moved his head:

Attachment 157090

Yes, Greedo still would've missed, but that looks pretty damn close to me. To assume it was a warning shot is absurd. The fact that it goes by in 8 frames, which is 1/3 of a second, there's no way in hell anyone would be able to notice it was a warning shot unless it was incredibly obvious and there's no way in hell anyone would notice exactly how far the shot is from Han's head because it's too fast. Most people seeing it for the first time probably think they both shot at the exact same time anyway.

For a skilled bounty hunter I would say that is darn far off the mark (at least half a foot...if not more!)...and again where is that gun pointing the entire time?

I don't care what fans that think, I care about what the scene says. Han moving or not, it is a shot fired from a couple of feet way. If Greedo intended to hit, he would have.

Why is it absurd to deduce a warning shot when Greedo gave so many indications he never intended to kill? It is context along with what happened.

[Scarface32]

Remember that time George Lucas trolled the fans by wearing a "Han shot first" T-Shirt?

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

For a skilled bounty hunter I would say that is darn far off the mark (at least half a foot...if not more!)...and again where is that gun pointing the entire time?

I don't care what fans that think, I care about what the scene says. Han moving or not, it is a shot fired from a couple of feet way. If Greedo intended to hit, he would have.

Why is it absurd to deduce a warning shot when Greedo gave so many indications he never intended to kill? It is context along with what happened.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone seeing that shot in motion while watching the film, which happens in a flash. The most obvious conclusion is that Greedo fired at Han, he missed, and Han shot him back. I can't picture someone thinking "In that 1/3 of a second it looked to me like Greedo fired a warning shot because the shot wouldn't have hit Han anyway." Without going through that part of the scene frame by frame, I don't see how anyone would conclude that Greedo's shot would've missed anyway.

I think Lucas might've had a version of the scene where Greedo's shot hit right where Han's head was and had Han's head move even farther to the side, and then realized that looked too ridiculous and changed it to Greedo missing by a few inches so that Han's head movement wouldn't look as weird.

[JasonHensley]

I'm not reading all off Elvis's drivel. I'm just curious how anyone can interpret Han saying "over my dead body" with Greedo's reply being "that's the idea" as anything other than Greedo was going to kill Han? My only assumption is he would have to be a huge troll looking for reactions or he's really stupid. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and lean towards troll.

[Ernest Rister]

If you keep taking the bait, you only have yourself to blame when you're flapping on the hook.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by JasonHensley

I'm not reading all off Elvis's drivel. I'm just curious how anyone can interpret Han saying "over my dead body" with Greedo's reply being "that's the idea" as anything other than Greedo was going to kill Han? My only assumption is he would have to be a huge troll looking for reactions or he's really stupid. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and lean towards troll.

You are asking this question because you didn't read the read the subtitles, let alone my "drivel".

But to cut to the chase, the words are, I am taking you to Jabba so he can possibly take your ship as payment. "Over my dead body".

"Thats the idea I have been looking forward to this a long time"

What is "this". Now listen close....pull your ear tight...

TAKING YOU TO JABBA TO SEE WHAT HE WILL DO TO YOU.

Sorry to yell, but again if Greedo was meaning to shoot Han he would have immediately.

@bobbyh64 Yes some things take a thought process. Of course it happens in Spaghetti Westerns all the time.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Again I did. The gun was pointed away from Han before he fired as opposed to going weird after the fact.

Uhh no that's not proof he purposely missed. It's been established the shot comes damn near close to Solo's face even if he hadn't tilted thus making the shoot to kill theory plausible. You only proved it's possible he purposely missed.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Uhh no that's not proof he purposely missed. It's been established the shot comes damn near close to Solo's face even if he hadn't tilted thus making the shoot to kill theory plausible. You only proved it's possible he purposely missed.

Follow me please, even if you don't agree.

The gun was tilted but not drectly at Han. Whle it can be deceiving, I believe firm that Greedo had to apprehend Han and again the deleted scene proves this...hence the "poor greedo" from Jabba.

What we do see in the special edition is the gun is tilted and the shot comes from his gun in that tilted way and misses no matter what.

Coming close to his face means nothing. People do it all the time in movies. Often they shoot off ears...bloody cheek...whatever. Those aren't kill shots.

The action alone doesn't prove the miss on purpose, it is the deleted scene and Greedo's words that do it for me.

To me it is like people believing Han will become a general and stay with the rebels.

I believe that the Han at the end of Star Wars came back for "reward" which is the fame. He even feels stupid hence the ebarrassed look. He already had the "reward", which was the money he likely was loading up on the falcoln.

Han was as good as gone at the end...well after boning the princess.

The "lean" shot gives continuity to away fom the cornered animal way he is, who shoots at 35% accuracy (if you believe the experts tabulations of the OT). It helps me with giving some kind of consistency to that obviously different character in the first movie.

But hey...we all have opinions....or in many cases..mythic Han beliefs.

[crissrudd4554]

Just because Greedo tilted the gun doesn't mean he intended to. Again theory.

Because he may not have directly said he was gonna kill Han doesn't mean he didn't have the idea in his head. We don't know fully what's going on in his mind. Again theory.

The shot came close to Solo's head. Either way Greedo was aiming for Solo. To kill or not to kill is the dispute. Again theory.

As far as the Jabba scene, it just so happens in some movies people have other plans for the people their bosses are targeting without the bosses necessarily knowing or vice versa. I mentioned earlier there's a possibility maybe something preceded these events that perhaps suggest Greedo has it in for Solo. Han says 'Yes Greedo' when Greedo says 'Going somewhere Solo?' implying they have somewhat of a history. Again THE-O-RY!

Plus there are people who don't tend to get into the mindset of the writer when exposed to their works. If I hear a song I don't try to determine what the writer was thinking when they wrote it. I try to let the song speak for itself. Same with movies. I'm not concerned with what George Lucas, or any director or writer for that matter, was actually trying to fully accomplish because I just sit and let the action do the talking. The thing about storytelling is there's more to pick up on it the more you return to it. However you are basically forcing us to accept this one angle of the scene because you are firm that's what happened and because from your view it aligns with Lucas' vision. Well sorry to disappoint you and Mr. Lucas but I will interpret the movie my own way just as I've done any other movie. That's storytelling to me.

PS it's a damn movie!

[The Fallen Deity]

Clearly Greedo trained to be a stormtrooper at one point. It's the only explanation for him being such a lousy shot.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Just because Greedo tilted the gun doesn't mean he intended to. Again theory.

Because he may not have directly said he was gonna kill Han doesn't mean he didn't have the idea in his head. We don't know fully what's going on in his mind. Again theory.

The shot came close to Solo's head. Either way Greedo was aiming for Solo. To kill or not to kill is the dispute. Again theory.

As far as the Jabba scene, it just so happens in some movies people have other plans for the people their bosses are targeting without the bosses necessarily knowing or vice versa. I mentioned earlier there's a possibility maybe something preceded these events that perhaps suggest Greedo has it in for Solo. Han says 'Yes Greedo' when Greedo says 'Going somewhere Solo?' implying they have somewhat of a history. Again THE-O-RY!

Plus there are people who don't tend to get into the mindset of the writer when exposed to their works. If I hear a song I don't try to determine what the writer was thinking when they wrote it. I try to let the song speak for itself. Same with movies. I'm not concerned with what George Lucas, or any director or writer for that matter, was actually trying to fully accomplish because I just sit and let the action do the talking. The thing about storytelling is there's more to pick up on it the more you return to it. However you are basically forcing us to accept this one angle of the scene because you are firm that's what happened and because from your view it aligns with Lucas' vision. Well sorry to disappoint you and Mr. Lucas but I will interpret the movie my own way just as I've done any other movie. That's storytelling to me.

PS it's a damn movie!

I agree with everything you wrote. Then there are people like me who analyze something a little deeper because I put the art so high that I feel the only way to get closer is to understand what the artist intended me to see, not just what I wanted to see. The same is true of songs to me. I listen to lyrics, learn about the person, make sure I respect the album over the playlist...etc.

That is why I watch special features, listen to interviews, delve into the background.. etc.

It is "just" a movie? Not to me. There are those old school directors like Lucas, Spielburg, Coppola, Scorsese, DePalma...and even the older ones like Kubrick and Leone and Hitchcock who literally changed my life.

Lately been watching Kieslowski...all these directors require special attention and have layers. I include Lucas in this group and I feel strongly with him there is more than meets the eyes.

Thanks for the discussion. We are just at an empasse. I appreciate you taking the time and staying civilized.

I wasn't forcing yo to do anything no more than you were forcing me. We all have a right to post if we stay civilized and if one doesn't want to debate...then don't. It is that simple.

Thanks again.

[crissrudd4554]

Fair enough. Fun discussion...I think.

[The Fallen Deity]

I think we can all agree though that Vader shouting no at the end of ROTJ is absolute b***ocks.

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Uh no....but just like a religion that isn't gonna make the haters believe. Hell but how does one convince someone of a t-shirt when they can't comprehend subtitles?

And now it's because I can't comprehend subtitles...

Care to tell us what name you used to post under before they gave you the boot? The forum will be a much better place when you are inevitably banned once again.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity

I think we can all agree though that Vader shouting no at the end of ROTJ is absolute b***ocks.

Nooooo!!!

Seriously, there are tons of Noooo motiffs, so one more, I see his reasoning. It doesn't ruin it for me within the confines of him becoming Vader, Luke learning the truth, Vader saying never again to Luke dying! The OT maks sense old way...the new version I see it. Different vision that is all IMHO.

On a side note, I never said I loved his changes. I just try to understand them.

Wanna know my change I absolutely cannot stand? Bobs Fetts voice in Empire. Voices change with environment, same as people that grow in different environments explaining diferen Storm Trooper sizes. Call it slipped Qualiy Control. The change was unnecesary and generally I hate when actors are changed out unless it serves a bigger story (Hayden in 3 films becoming ghost, the Emperor instead of bug eyes woman...etc).

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

And now it's because I can't comprehend subtitles...

Care to tell us what name you used to post under before they gave you the boot? The forum will be a much better place when you are inevitably banned once again.

I posted under genesim and I was banned before.

I admit it fully. I have apologized to admin for my behavior and if I am banned again you will be the reason why.

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular in regards to not reading subtitles. But there are many that clearly have not comprehended what was said over the years (again not necessarily referring to anyone but the t-shirt makers and supporters.

You calling me a troll is way out of line though, and I have not called anyone a name like that.