Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Vandal Savage]

The problem I had with TPM is that it was a mistake to start with Anakin's childhood. The first prequel movie was essentially wasted because nothing important happened in it. You can watch AOTC without having seen TPM and not feel like you missed anything.

So much of what was wrong with the prequels started there.

Episode one should have featured an adult Anakin meeting an adult Padme and ended with their marriage.

Episode two should featured Anakin's fall and ended with the Obi-Wan vs Anakin battle.

Episode three should have been the introduction of the Vader suit, the birth of the twins, the Emporer consolidating power and hunting down the Jedi, and ended with Padme hiding with baby Leia in the Organa home, Yoda arriving on Dagobah, and Obi-Wan leaving baby Luke at the Lars homestead on Tatooine.

As the prequel trilogy stands, the first film is pointless, and the finale is rushed to a conclusion in the final act of the last film. The Jedi are defeated, literally, by the Emperor pushing a button.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

He's good in Shattered Glass. Poor fellow gets a bad rap. Some actors need a director, he might be one of them.

Not just that but all of the worst performances in the movie came from the youngest cast members: Jake Lloyd, Hayden, and Natalie Portman. The more seasoned actors were able to deal with the script and probable lack of direction a bit better. Even Samuel L Jackson was pretty stiff in those movies and lacked all the personality and intensity he normally has, even in other bad films that he stars in.

Honestly, how do you recite this in any believable way?: "It was you who fell into that nightmare, master, and I rescued you."

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Not just that but all of the worst performances in the movie came from the youngest cast members: Jake Lloyd, Hayden, and Natalie Portman. The more seasoned actors were able to deal with the script and probable lack of direction a bit better. Even Samuel L Jackson was pretty stiff in those movies and lacked all the personality and intensity he normally has, even in other bad films that he stars in.

Honestly, how do you recite this in any believable way?: "It was you who fell into that nightmare, master, and I rescued you."

Blow it off, like any teenager. *Pfft. You did that.* Instead, he's told to play it earnestly.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Blow it off, like any teenager. *Pfft. You did that.* Instead, he's told to play it earnestly.

I'm not an actor or anything but I can't imagine pulling those lines off. You could edit that dialog and make it a funny little moment, like have Anakin look at him with smirk and say "That was you. I rescued you. Remember?" Something like that.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

I'm not an actor or anything but I can't imagine pulling those lines off. You could edit that dialog and make it a funny little moment, like have Anakin look at him with smirk and say "That was you. I rescued you. Remember?" Something like that.

You play that internally -- exactly. My BFA is in Acting. You can say, "Here is your water, sir." and make it mean all sorts of things, from love to contempt. It's the internal thinking and thought process giving the impulse to speech that makes the difference. Acting is very much about playing internal thoughts and emotions, which make the body act out, otherwise you're doing an impersonation. I think Hayden was told what his character was thinking, shot to shot, and he's trying to play what he's asked to, but it creates this unnatural pastiche, and he's doing the best he can with what he's being asked to do, so his performance is all over the map. And no, the dialog doesn't help.

[Geoff D]

The dialogue is part of the problem for sure. Lucas wanted this stiff, overly formal style for the PT - no doubt to indicate the republic in its pomp etc - but when it's combined with actors who aren't willing or able to internalise this stuff it plays as very superficial and false.

While the OT has some absolute stinkers it doesn't have this same formality threaded through it, and even when it does the acting has enough verve and vitality to be able to chew through it like Leia's "foul stench" bit, you can really see the sheer contempt in her eyes. And even on the reverse shot of Peter Cushing you can see that she gives a sarcastic curtsy when he says "charming, to the last".

BUT I've said it before that I like Sith as much as I do because the young actors are FINALLY able to overcome the dialogue and imbue it with something other than what they're supposed to be projecting, like in the lovey-dovey bit with Anakin and Padme near the beginning. It cops so much flak but I genuinely think they're toying with each other, and other lines like "So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause..." deserve to be high up on the list of all-time best Star Wars dialogue.

And one of the best scenes in the entire saga has no dialogue, that of Ani and Padme looking out across Coruscant, and it's an indicator that Lucas had finally got his directorial groove back, trusting to the actors and the music and the visuals rather than hand-holding (and ham-stringing) the scene with flat tin-eared dialogue. It's almost THX-esque in that respect, but it will always be the tragedy of the prequels that Lucas had to spend two entire movies shaking off his ring rust, and the switch to all-digital capture on Clones didn't help because it meant that servicing the tech came before servicing the story.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

You play that internally -- exactly. My BFA is in Acting. You can say, "Here is your water, sir." and make it mean all sorts of things, from love to contempt. It's the internal thinking and thought process giving the impulse to speech that makes the difference. Acting is very much about playing internal thoughts and emotions, which make the body act out, otherwise you're doing an impersonation. I think Hayden was told what his character was thinking, shot to shot, and he's trying to play what he's asked to, but it creates this unnatural pastiche, and he's doing the best he can with what he's being asked to do, so his performance is all over the map. And no, the dialog doesn't help.

A good actor doesn't need a director to tell them what to do.

While Lucas lines are not deep and theater like...neither are the rest of his films.

Natalie, Haydn, and Jake did fine for a Star Wars movie.

Other than having few lines, I have to admit that Samuel Jackson did quite well too. This isn't Tarantino, so I never expected that caliber. Often people compare Jackson other work and forget that they are very different movies.

Now, some of the work that should have been dialed down would be Ian McDiarmid. His change to the "EMPEROR" was so over the top, I honestly could have laughed. Like I have said about the completely overacted Luke in Empire reveal, less is more.

But hey, these are small gripes. I usually have only pointed them out because of the environment here. The truth is that they almost fall in line with the rest of the saga.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Geoff D,

Great post. Peter Cushing's work is very under appreciated. I feel the same about Christopher Lee in Attack of the Clones that is criminally underrated, but the problem is that it is buried in Yoda break dancing.

[Harry Güchenschlong]

Interesting that you though Samuel L. did okay Elvis, because even though everyone dumps all over Hayden, I thought SLJ was absolutely horrendous in these movies. Seemed like he had no idea what to do and was the least convincing performance in the prequel trilogy... but whatever cuz that's only my opinion anyway and we all know what opinions are like.

And yes the scene with palpatine becoming "emperor" was in fact laughably bad

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by Harry Güchenschlong

Interesting that you though Samuel L. did okay Elvis, because even though everyone dumps all over Hayden, I thought SLJ was absolutely horrendous in these movies. Seemed like he had no idea what to do and was the least convincing performance in the prequel trilogy... but whatever cuz that's only my opinion anyway and we all know what opinions are like.

And yes the scene with palpatine becoming "emperor" was in fact laughably bad

He only had absolutely nothing to work with, and for being in that situation I thought he did the best he could. Even when everything else was miserable you could go "Oh hey it's Samuel L Jackson he's cool". That gets your far when your competition is that nameless douchebag with the head 3 sizes too tall.

[Harry Güchenschlong]

Originally Posted by kidglov3s

He only had absolutely nothing to work with, and for being in that situation I thought he did the best he could. Even when everything else was miserable you could go "Oh hey it's Samuel L Jackson he's cool".

Oh I absolutely agree he had nothing to really work with. It was all so bad though I couldn't even say "oh well at least he's cool" I just couldn't wait for him to get killed off because the character sucked so bad.

[ElvisForever]

Harry,

I hear ya, and it wasn't so much bad...just serviceable. I still liked him though.

That reminds me.

I remember some comedy skit where it went something like this, making fun of Episode I, and this is all I can remember because it was on the radio.

What is this Queen Padme...looking like Cher on her last tour. And what is with her age? How old is she and she is supposed to get with this little kid??? ...not only does she look like Cher, now she is acting like her!

And what is with this guard Pinaka...Binaka...sounds like a breath mint and he is supposed t be protecting her??

And what is with Samuel L. Jackson only getting but a few lines. I mean this is JULES!!!! What the hell? How could you screw that up?? He needs to be like "don't make me put a foot in your ass!".

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Really?

Back in the day I remember using two Prologic amps to get the extra channel and found the extra "phantom" channel quite perceptable. The old Prologic center and surround no less so.

The Star Wars original 35mm stereo is a great example, with the Luke/Leia swing scene being a prime example of what matrixed sound is capable of.

At home, in a near field situation, they may have been perceptible. But in a theater situation, especially in the larger theaters of that era, I never perceived it and I was trying to listen for it.

Matrixed sound can be effective if the producers/engineers designed for it. But it can also result in phase cancellations. I find almost all of those sound modes on my receiver that essentially are doing matrix and phase tricks to universally sound terrible. Dolby ProLogic II might be an exception, although what is that doing? It's essentially taking the in-phase mono from left and right and sending it to center and keeping left minus right and right minus left in the fronts and then sending everything out of phase to the surrounds.

All EX and ES did was take the mono components of the surrounds and send it to that center surround. Even without that speaker, there would have been a phantom center surround, just as there's a phantom center front if one's system is set up properly (although I'm not saying that a true center channel isn't superior).

[ambient_indie]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

You play that internally -- exactly. My BFA is in Acting. You can say, "Here is your water, sir." and make it mean all sorts of things, from love to contempt. It's the internal thinking and thought process giving the impulse to speech that makes the difference. Acting is very much about playing internal thoughts and emotions, which make the body act out, otherwise you're doing an impersonation. I think Hayden was told what his character was thinking, shot to shot, and he's trying to play what he's asked to, but it creates this unnatural pastiche, and he's doing the best he can with what he's being asked to do, so his performance is all over the map. And no, the dialog doesn't help.

I would love to see Hayden or Ewan or Sam or Natalie in another Star Wars film with a different writer and director running it. Hayden I think got the bulk of the criticism. They deserve a second chance with an actor's director. Workout better dialogue and focus on how to best deliver it.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

All EX and ES did was take the mono components of the surrounds and send it to that center surround. Even without that speaker, there would have been a phantom center surround, just as there's a phantom center front if one's system is set up properly (although I'm not saying that a true center channel isn't superior).

I think Dolby Prologic IIx is quite excellent. I use it on most everything and I don't look back since I have 7 speakers.

As for Dolby Pro Logic. One prime example are with the 3 Color Trilogy. This demands to be heard with proper decoding. The surrounds are so atmospheric.

I can't remember if I mentioned it, but back in the day We Were Soldiers was a fantastic movie for Dolby Digital EX. Most of the time the 6th channel was silent, but not so with this movie.

Just like with T2, I feel there are very discrete sounds. The only pain was flipping my hand back to control the back amplifier. Lol

Thankfully things have changed, and surround to 6 or 7 speakers is not a big deal anymore.

As for the phantom speaker being as good as the real deal...hell no (not saying you are saying this at all!!). Not for me. It is like people saying that sound bars as good as discrete speaker set up. Physics doesn't agree with that notion.

I see your point with hearing something, but the supposed bleeding is not going to cancel out the benefit of a dedicated speaker. That is just my opinion of which you seem to agree with.

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by ambient_indie

I would love to see Hayden or Ewan or Sam or Natalie in another Star Wars film with a different writer and director running it. Hayden I think got the bulk of the criticism. They deserve a second chance with an actor's director. Workout better dialogue and focus on how to best deliver it.

I wouldn't mind a young Obi Wan film with McGregor but Padme and Mace Windu are dead and need to stay that way. Young Anakin doesn't belong in any future Star Wars films, either. Disney has a good thing going with the new films and I don't think they will want to really bring the Prequels into them.

[ambient_indie]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I wouldn't mind a young Obi Wan film with McGregor but Padme and Mace Windu are dead and need to stay that way. Young Anakin doesn't belong in any future Star Wars films, either. Disney has a good thing going with the new films and I don't think they will want to really bring the Prequels into them.

Most likely Disney won't. All I'm saying in the world of prequels and make believe we could see these actors redeem themselves at some point. Hell, there's people who LOVE the prequels. and Disney likes money. So there's a possibility for prequel elements to return.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by ambient_indie

Most likely Disney won't. All I'm saying in the world of prequels and make believe we could see these actors redeem themselves at some point. Hell, there's people who LOVE the prequels. and Disney likes money. So there's a possibility for prequel elements to return.

Some people like to pretend the prequels don't exist or Lucas work should be forgotten.

If you follow Lucas vision, young Anakin is a key part of the story and should absolutely be used.

Ewan being used is total ass because he was old for three films. It absolutely makes no sense.

Haydn belongs in the new movies in some way.

Did they use Ewan voice in the new movie anyway? If they did...yup, it makes no sense.

[Nailwraps]

Well I for one am excited Hayden will be in VIII.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Nailwraps

Well I for one am excited Hayden will be in VIII.

I am trying to figure out something. If the Vader mask is melted, and Anakin has been an integral part of the story, why would anyone think that some how...poof...he doesn't belong? I mean we are pretty much talking about several billion in prequel sales on the table to be integrated with the new vision.

While some argue, Lucas has pretty much proven and maintained that this is the Anakin Skywalker story.

Of course the new trilogy makers want to switch it back to Luke, and I am not entirely sure that will be successful. It for sure would be absolutely foolish, because no one is truly dressing up as old ass Luke for Halloween...or any other version really.

[exolstice]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I wouldn't mind a young Obi Wan film with McGregor but Padme and Mace Windu are dead and need to stay that way. Young Anakin doesn't belong in any future Star Wars films, either. Disney has a good thing going with the new films and I don't think they will want to really bring the Prequels into them.

I'd pay to see the further adventures of Obi-Ewan McGregor.