Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[steel_breeze]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

You just summed up George Lucas perfectly. This is why Kirshner's TESB is easily the best film in the entire saga. He took Lucas' ideas and brought powerhouse execution.

For me the original STAR WARS (which I will never call "A New Hope") is still the best. And the only truly stand-alone movie in the whole saga. The perfect "hero's journey" that changed cinema forever -- for better AND for worse. But EMPIRE is certainly my second fave; no contest. And controversially, LAST JEDI is my third fave -- but PLEASE don't start turning this into an anti-TLJ thread like literally all the other STAR WARS threads; this is going so well, isn't it?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

I thought AOTC was HUGE step up when it arrived; even saw it four times in the theaters.

Coming out of the theater I was kind of in the same place. I was definitely disappointed by TPM and my immediate reaction to Clones was 'okay, this is a little more like it...that wasn't bad'.

But it's weird, not only has my impression of Clones overall changed, my impression of many of its components have done 180s as well.

I didn't care for the love story and I hated the droid factory sequence and it's subsequent 'comedy relief' and I absolutely loved the seismic charges chase and none of that has changed. But some of the stuff I liked (the arena, pinball Yoda dueling Dooku) hasn't aged well and some of the stuff I thought was dumb (car chase, Sherlock Kenobi on Kamino) have aged very, very well.

In fact, the whole noirish subplot surrounding the clones really does it for me now. And I love that they never get around to explaining who Sifo-Diyas was.

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

Full disclosure (regarding "missing Anakin's ultimate downfall in ROTS")... and I'm sure I'm the only one on these forums with this opinion... but I consider the second half of ROTS -- from the moment Mace and Co. arrive to confront Palpatine onward -- is the worst hour of all the STAR WARS movies.

Worst hour of all the movies is a little strong but as much as I've come to like Sith I can't deny there's a lot to roll ones eyes at in that last hour. There's definitely some good stuff - and coupled with all the good stuff leading up to it there's enough to really like the movie overall - but yeah, there are some real groaners too. My 'favorite' is the whole losing the will to live nonsense. Gawd, that's awful.

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

For me the original STAR WARS (which I will never call "A New Hope") is still the best. And the only truly stand-alone movie in the whole saga. The perfect "hero's journey" that changed cinema forever -- for better AND for worse. But EMPIRE is certainly my second fave; no contest. And controversially, LAST JEDI is my third fave -- but PLEASE don't start turning this into an anti-TLJ thread like literally all the other STAR WARS threads; this is going so well, isn't it?

That's my top three too. Except for right after I've seen TFA and then TLJ drops to fourth for a while.

[steel_breeze]

Originally Posted by octagon

That's my top three too. Except for right after I've seen TFA and then TLJ drops to fourth for a while.

Love it; for me it's TLJ and ROGUE ONE that occasionally vie for the same spot, depending on which one I've just seen... but I think TLJ has a pretty firm hold on it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

You just summed up George Lucas perfectly. This is why Kirshner's TESB is easily the best film in the entire saga. He took Lucas' ideas and brought powerhouse execution.

I dunno about "powerhouse execution", that sounds like a quote you picked up somewhere that you've been dying to use in a sentence ever since

Kersh was the opposite, not about the slam-bang "faster, more intense" Lucas style but someone who wanted to slow things down, to get to the core of the characters and to allow the actors to explore that, to bring a true psychological edge to the movie to go with the toy advert. Empire's by far the most meditative SW movie out of the first six, of the subsequent Disnee shows only TLJ does anything like the same sort of navel-gazing.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

You just summed up George Lucas perfectly. This is why Kirshner's TESB is easily the best film in the entire saga. He took Lucas' ideas and brought powerhouse execution.

Kirschner and Kurtz and Lucas and Kasdan were a team, but I think it is unfair to suggest anyone other than Lucas was ultimately responsible for the finished product. Sometimes the Auteur Theory breaks down when the "author" is the producer, not the director, even though the director is great with actors and staging, and you have a powerhouse editorial team. Film craft is a team effort. Producer hires the team. If a producer hires himself for writing and directing, that's on the producer.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I dunno about "powerhouse execution", that sounds like a quote you picked up somewhere that you've been dying to use in a sentence ever since

Kersh was the opposite, not about the slam-bang "faster, more intense" Lucas style but someone who wanted to slow things down, to get to the core of the characters and to allow the actors to explore that, to bring a true psychological edge to the movie to go with the toy advert. Empire's by far the most meditative SW movie out of the first six, of the subsequent Disnee shows only TLJ does anything like the same sort of navel-gazing.

It just seemed like he knew what he wanted to do from day one since he was armed with Lucas' ideas.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Kirschner and Kurtz and Lucas and Kasdan were a team, but I think it is unfair to suggest anyone other than Lucas was ultimately responsible for the finished product. Sometimes the Auteur Theory breaks down when the "author" is the producer, not the director, even though the director is great with actors and staging, and you have a powerhouse editorial team. Film craft is a team effort. Producer hires the team. If a producer hires himself for writing and directing, that's on the producer.

I absolutely agree, but I do feel that Kershner was the most crucial piece of the puzzle.

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I dunno about "powerhouse execution", that sounds like a quote you picked up somewhere that you've been dying to use in a sentence ever since

Kersh was the opposite, not about the slam-bang "faster, more intense" Lucas style but someone who wanted to slow things down, to get to the core of the characters and to allow the actors to explore that, to bring a true psychological edge to the movie to go with the toy advert. Empire's by far the most meditative SW movie out of the first six, of the subsequent Disnee shows only TLJ does anything like the same sort of navel-gazing.

TESB also had Leigh Brackett helping on the script!

[spudeus]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

TESB also had Leigh Brackett helping on the script!

Thought they threw out most of Leigh's draft?

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by spudeus

Thought they threw out most of Leigh's draft?

You are correct! My mistake!

Found a page detailing the original script. If anyone like me was Also uninformed like me and curious.

Edit: https://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/...-you-never-saw

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

Full disclosure (regarding "missing Anakin's ultimate downfall in ROTS")... and I'm sure I'm the only one on these forums with this opinion... but I consider the second half of ROTS -- from the moment Mace and Co. arrive to confront Palpatine onward -- is the worst hour of all the STAR WARS movies. Almost unendurable, for me. I think Anakin's turn and everything after is so badly handled that it still makes me angry to watch; even though I try to claim I'm the "all STAR WARS is good STAR WARS guy". Every rushed plot point, every horribly on-the-nose line of dialogue... it's such a hugely mishandled opportunity, in my opinion. So I can certainly live without it.

I'm not quite there with you on "worst," but that point in the film is where it lost me as well. I used to say that Revenge of the Sith was almost a good movie-- more interesting things are happening, and there's better writing and directing going on. But then all of the problems of the whole trilogy plotline come rearing it's ugly head, and Lucas suddenly has 40-50 minutes to do literally all of the big plot-beats of the prequels (Anakin turns into Darth Vader, the Republic turns into the Empire, the Jedi are massacred, the twins are born and separated, etc.). It's way too much all at once and it feels extremely rushed through, IMO. I mean, that scene where he becomes Darth Vader was just such an awkward transition, and it didn't help that the scene was making everyone laugh.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007

Just prooves that the entire PT is f'd.

Sure, whatever you want to believe.

[Ernest Rister]

Walt checked out of drawing and directing early, hiring people better than him to draw, direct, write, etc. Settled into an OCD producer mode hiring people with more skills and expertise to make his movies for him, under his supervision.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

I thought AOTC was HUGE step up when it arrived; even saw it four times in the theaters. But I admit I was one of those who thought PHANTOM MENACE raped my childhood, even if I never expressed it in those absurd terms. Man, I hated that first movie when it arrived. It was the perfect storm of "geniuinely not living up to the original trilogy" and "being too hard on it 'cuz I was 28 years old and in the height of my most pretentious stage of life". Luckily, I've since learned to enjoy PHANTOM MENACE for what it is, even if I still do think it's a rough start to the Saga. And I still do hold the opinion that AOTC is my favorite of the prequels. I won't say the "best", 'cuz that's subjective; but it is inarguably "my favorite".

I also, however, think it works fantastically as a single-prequel flashback. Hear me out. Imagine starting with the original STAR WARS (I still refuse to call it "A New Hope"), then watching EMPIRE STRIKES BACK... Darth Vader says "hey dude, I'm you're father"... whaaaaa??... watch AOTC as a flashback that shows almost everything you ever wanted to see: Obi-and-Ani, Palps doin' his rise to power, army of Jedi fighting side by side, beginning of the Clone Wars, even (gag) Ani and Padme... but there's no turn to the dark-side. Is Vader lying? WAS he Anakin Skywalker? Watch RETURN OF THE JEDI next and learn the truth from Yoda, just as was originally intended. Similar to the so-called machete order, but AOTC is really all you need if you want to keep the original reveals intact.

So, we have a new viewing order now. The steel breeze order.

[octagon]

Okay but do I still get to watch the last hour of Sith?

[steel_breeze]

Originally Posted by octagon

Okay but do I still get to watch the last hour of Sith?

< insert Vader "Noooooooo" meme here >

[octagon]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

< insert Vader "Noooooooo" meme here >

I was soooooooooo freaking close to adding that

[steel_breeze]

I still haven't decided what the best order for watching these flicks is... and I've tried 'em all, believe you me.

STAR WARS '77 is clearly the best entree into the universe. But then what the hell do you do with ROGUE ONE, which I love and would miss if it were absent? ROGUE ONE doesn't work as a flashback -- like the prequels do -- since the ending just leaves ya hangin'. And you can't START with ROGUE ONE 'cuz it doesn't do enough "universe building" (IMHO).

The Saga order (starting with Episode I) is clearly the best for feeling the whole sweep of galactic "history"... but Episode I is a terrible place to start. Oh the things that keep me awake at night.

[spudeus]

Hmm, I'm imagining a young person with an interest in sci-fi. I tell him or her that Star Wars transformed our lives, pop culture, and movie-making itself. A seminal event they must experience. A phenomenon that fired the imaginations of millions/billions. Then in goes Episode I and Jar-Jar bounces onto the screen: 'Meesa is goyna deliver fart jokes and tongue gags for de next 2 1/2 hours!'

[CreasyBear]

I actually think Episode 1 is a better entry into the universe than Episode 4. Both movies just kind of throw you into the action right at the start without a whole lot of context, aside from the opening crawl. But where Episode 1 excels and Episode 4 is weak, mostly because it is the fourth chapter and you should know it all by now, is that in Episode 1 you get so much context into how the galaxy works from a political and social perspective that you really need for later on. Who are the Sith and the Jedi and how do they operate? How does Palpatine put the plans in motion to become Emperor and the Republic a dictatorship? Etc. Etc. It makes the rest of the saga so much more vibrant and fully realized.