HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, something people don't realise as they keep talking up 8K is that each of these step-ups in resolution put different demands on the glass used to capture it in the first place. Bigger sensor = shallower depth of field, I 'member you saying something very similar when 4K was being tested out. That in itself proves that those hurdles can be overcome with time, but still....

You listened ....and you understood.

P.S.
Sorry about the loss today.....

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

b.t.w., dailies for The Dark Tower (shot on ALEXA 65 ARRIRAW) were with Colorfront OSD).

With regards to Hollywood studios and post production work, something I forgot to mention is that a subsidiary of Walt Disney Studios is investigating a non-proprietary HDR approach to motion picture production using ACES workflow already tested on Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.2....

Nevertheless…..testing ACES HDR workflow aside, that silver tongued James Gunn has me tempted to experience the 4DX version of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2…http://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/...-nu-metro-4dx/

[DanBa]

Question to Matt McRae, CTO of Vizio:
"Which image do you think is the more accurate? First or second?"



R: "I have also learned that "accurate" is a tough definition - especially with movies. The studio, cinematographer and colorist will master the content into what they deem as the "Director's intent" which is not always "lifelike." I have seen DV masters come in and challenges the accuracy and then later sat with the Director who told me they were trying to achieve a certain "mood" for that scene. They are artists and view light as their medium... through this process I was VERY impressed with Dolby's ability to give the Director a wider palette to achieve the effect they wanted... and in almost every case I have scrutinized it was closer to the original intent of that piece of content."
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post52551169

Presentation "What is HDR?" of Josh Limor, VP of Technology and Ecosystem Development at Technicolor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0pj5n1fJjU#t=2m50s

Kubrick In Color - YouTube

Delivering the "creative intent" once approved in mastering process to the consumer display, while conforming to a more limited color volume of the consumer display and while minimizing color appearance changes in the images, is possible with Dynamic HDR (Dolby Vision, HDR10Plus) ecosystems.
http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/0cap.jpg
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...6#post13204106

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Nevertheless…..testing ACES HDR workflow aside, that silver tongued James Gunn has me tempted to experience the 4DX version of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2…http://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/...-nu-metro-4dx/

I would rather watch a movie and be immersed by its story. 4DX is almost like a limited Disneyland ride.

4DX at Cineworld – How does it work? - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Question to Matt McRae, CTO of Vizio:
"Which image do you think is the more accurate? First or second?"



R: "I have also learned that "accurate" is a tough definition - especially with movies. The studio, cinematographer and colorist will master the content into what they deem as the "Director's intent" which is not always "lifelike." I have seen DV masters come in and challenges the accuracy and then later sat with the Director who told me they were trying to achieve a certain "mood" for that scene. They are artists and view light as their medium... through this process I was VERY impressed with Dolby's ability to give the Director a wider palette to achieve the effect they wanted... and in almost every case I have scrutinized it was closer to the original intent of that piece of content."

I think the answer given to that question was pretty much self evident to most home theater enthusiasts.

Good follow-up question to ask the Vizio rep regarding accuracy to ‘Director’s intent’ would be…..what percentage of the HDR remasters of catalog titles are being done with either the Director or cinematographer physcially present during the session with the colorist?

And, even in cases in which they actually are present for the creation of the HDR home deliverable, what is the most common client monitor (or, let’s say 2 most common brand/models to pretty much cover the facility field) used by post houses in Hollywood for their (the Director or cinematographer) viewing so as not to have them almost sitting on the lap of the colorist in front of a rather small Sony BVM-X300 or Dolby Pulsar.

Wouldn’t the filmmakers approval of what he’s seeing on the client monitor, which is a consumer TV, be the most accurate reproduction of his intent as to the true look of the motion picture because the imagery viewed on all other brand/model consumer displays actually are approximations to that, essentially based upon combined algorithmic and target display prowess. Dynamic metadata, no matter which solution you prefer, is not perfect and not as accurate as the control (the client monitor), to the right in the pic –

[StingingVelvet]

Worth noting that Vizio has a vested interest in pushing Dolby Vision, since it's what separates their high-end LCD sets from Samsungs, the other top rated brand in that section.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I would rather watch a movie and be immersed by its story. 4DX is almost like a limited Disneyland ride.

I agree….and alas, perhaps it’s indicative of both our ages. I posted that clip more tongue-in-cheek as to the promotional skills of James.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...
Dynamic metadata, no matter which solution you prefer, is not perfect and not as accurate as the control (the client monitor), to the right in the pic –

What is the client monitor?
Is it a normal consumer TV (with a smaller display color volume than the media color volume)?

The display adaptation of a normal consumer TV with a limited display color volume should be driven by dynamic metadata generated by the automatic conversion and the manual color corrections at mastering time.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

What is the client monitor?
Is it a normal consumer TV...

In essence yes, for HDR it’s a consumer TV. I’d say that the most common client monitors being used in Hollywood post facilities are the LG OLEDs and/or the SONY Z9D.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

The display adaptation of a normal consumer TV with a limited display color volume should be driven by dynamic metadata...

Indeed ….that’s fundamental. We’re beyond that rudimentary discussion here….especially when you’re astute enough to pull slides from Lars’s lecture with ease .

My point was….take a movie mastered in DV and home audiences view it on several TVs (Vizio, LG, Sony, etc.), all capable of Dolby Vision playback. For home theater purists really chasing director’s intent, which TV shows the most accurate reproduction?

Answer – the brand/model client monitor the filmmaker viewed to approve it in the first place. (sure Dolby Vision and for that matter HDR10+ are more ‘intelligent’ or accurate than HDR10, but they don’t magically make all TVs provide perfectly equal images).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

color volume

On that note, several days ago I promised people a link to a cutting edge white paper…..

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post13484312

White paper to come.

^ --> now available as a supplemental study aid in pdf form to help in following the additional topic of a cutting edge slant on color volume…..https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...lor-volume.pdf

Presentation begins in several hours at 4:15 P.M.….


http://www.cvent.com/events/entertai...c359d458e.aspx

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You listened ....and you understood.

P.S.
Sorry about the loss today.....

Heh, you make it sound like a mortal wound. It's just football.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Indeed ….that’s fundamental. We’re beyond that rudimentary discussion here….especially when you’re astute enough to pull slides from Lars’s lecture with ease .

My point was….take a movie mastered in DV and home audiences view it on several TVs (Vizio, LG, Sony, etc.), all capable of Dolby Vision playback. For home theater purists really chasing director’s intent, which TV shows the most accurate reproduction?

Answer – the brand/model client monitor the filmmaker viewed to approve it in the first place. (sure Dolby Vision and for that matter HDR10+ are more ‘intelligent’ or accurate than HDR10, but they don’t magically make all TVs provide perfectly equal images).

I said that just a few days ago...but did I absorb it by forums osmosis and I'm just parroting you (as usual), or did I come up with it on mah own? Who cares!

Point being, people can look at dynamic systems as being this incroyable advance over regular HDR and that's fine but it's not some super-transparent "master grade" that's being replicated in front of your eyes, it's still being converted to fit the target display. Dynamic will be a better fit for sure (particularly on OLEDs and projectors with their limited peak brightness, along with lower-nit LCDs) as it's bespoke tailoring and not an off-the-rack number, but something doesn't always have to be from Savile Row to get the right fit.

I do like the question about how many filmmakers have actually sat in on the HDR grading process thus far though. Care to throw us a rough estimate if you have such knowledge, Mr P?

[Vangeli]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In essence yes, for HDR it’s a consumer TV. I’d say that the most common client monitors being used in Hollywood post facilities are the LG OLEDs and/or the SONY Z9D.

Sony makes a pro OLED monitor and it's $30k. I figure that's probably used by someone.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I said that just a few days ago...but did I absorb it by forums osmosis and I'm just parroting you (as usual), or did I come up with it on mah own? Who cares!

Point being, people can look at dynamic systems as being this incroyable advance over regular HDR and that's fine but it's not some super-transparent "master grade" that's being replicated in front of your eyes, it's still being converted to fit the target display. Dynamic will be a better fit for sure (particularly on OLEDs and projectors with their limited peak brightness, along with lower-nit LCDs) as it's bespoke tailoring and not an off-the-rack number, but something doesn't always have to be from Savile Row to get the right fit.

I do like the question about how many filmmakers have actually sat in on the HDR grading process thus far though. Care to throw us a rough estimate if you have such knowledge, Mr P?

Dolby Vision is going to be tough on projectors because for it work properly it needs to know screen brightness. Would need to be specially calibrated by the user or use some measuring device like Audyssey due variation in screen size, gain, ambient light, etc. And, I don't believe dolby has even begun significant work on projector hdr.

On another note for projectors, one aspect people miss aside from brightness is ANSI contrast. DLP 4k (such as Acer V9800} is currently the best tech to see max range of HDR on a projector due to ANSI contrast greatly exceeding lcd/lcos projectors. This may be hard for some to wrap their heads around as lcd/lcos has better contrast for SDR. But for HDR, DLP is where it's at - LCD/Lcos looks more dull in comparison due to lower ANSI contrast.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Vangeli

Sony makes a pro OLED monitor and it's $30k. I figure that's probably used by someone.

Hmmm,

Would you believe it's the little 30" (approx.) screen on the left?

The Sony on the right is a 65" Z9D that srp's for $6K.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I said that just a few days ago...but did I absorb it by forums osmosis and I'm just parroting you (as usual), or did I come up with it on mah own? Who cares!

Well I do.

Because that’s creepy Geoff. I hadn’t read your post (in fact, no disrespect to other contributors there, but until you hyperlinked it here, I hadn’t read any of the postings on that particular thread) and now I see we’ve both used the word “magically” in conversation with another member.

Is some higher order messing with our brains and we don’t know it?....or am I eating the same food as you are.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I do like the question about how many filmmakers have actually sat in on the HDR grading process thus far though. Care to throw us a rough estimate if you have such knowledge, Mr P?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by zmarty

Mr. Penton-Man, I dedicate this video to you.

I have published what I believe to be the first HDR technical analysis / review ... in HDR. You need YouTube HDR to view it properly, but the analysis itself should be useful even when viewing on an SDR screen.

In the video I am trying to provide some general information about HDR, and to determine if the Star Trek Beyond 4K Blu-Ray is as dark as some reviews complained. See the description below the video for more information.

Real 4K HDR: Star Trek Beyond HDR Review and general HDR information (Chromecast Ultra) - YouTube

I notice since then ^ you’ve been busy doing more analyzing ….

Real 4K HDR: Planet Earth II HDR Review (Chromecast Ultra) - YouTube

[Vangeli]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Hmmm,

Would you believe it's the little 30" (approx.) screen on the left?

The Sony on the right is a 65" Z9D that srp's for $6K.

Interesting. The one I'm referring to is a 55" display. Thought it was in that image instead of the Z9D but the stands are inset a few inches. They're very similar looking.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-mon...oduct-PVMX550/

[Penton-Man]

At least two new cameras (which were being shown privately at NAB) will publicly debut at Cine Gear Expo LA next month. Time to register now folks.

For locals not quite that interested in cameras per se, sometimes the screenings are worthwhile….http://www.cinegearexpo.com/la-expo-special-screenings