Black Panther 4K UHD (2018)

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

@ VonMagnum

I don’t want to clog up this thread anymore with our arguing so I’ll try and be brief. I’ll say this for the last time. I didn’t put down your QLED. I simply corrected you when you said the black levels are near the OLED because from my own personal experience it’s not true, I’ve owned LED’s that have better but like I said the brightness and colour of your set is better than some including mine. Then you decided I was attacking you so you sent me a backhanded comment about the OLED. As for the projector debate. I think it’s obvious we have different opinions of what looks good and what doesn’t so let’s leave it at that. As for the making fun of, it is an Internet forum and you need thick skin if you’re posting your opinions in a strong manner. Everyone gets called out and tempers rise because we’re the only crazy people left that actually care about physical media anymore. I’m moving on.

Absolutely! There is zero reason to even debate black levels when comparing LCD to OLED. It’s like comparing the cutting power of a samurai sword to a butter knife. Just don’t do it. While LCD has made improvements to blacks, via the higher end TVs like Sony Z9 sets and a few others it’s never going to get close enough to warrant any discussion. So, case closed.

As for projectors? Yeah, they’re cool and all but for many of us they just aren’t practical and still struggle with ambient room light. It’s great that some here have the resources for dedicated theaters. Sweet! But that’s a pretty small group versus us TV guys that don’t have such things. So, enjoy the big screen and your 17.4 speaker setup but it doesn’t pertain to most of us.

Oh and physical media >>>>>> streaming.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Absolutely! There is zero reason to even debate black levels when comparing LCD to OLED. It’s like comparing the cutting power of a samurai sword to a butter knife. Just don’t do it. While LCD has made improvements to blacks, via the higher end TVs like Sony Z9 sets and a few others it’s never going to get close enough to warrant any discussion. So, case closed.

Give me a break.

[bradnoyes]

Last night I was watching Monsters Inc. with my son and I just kept thinking "if only Black Panther's audio was half as good..." Sorry to keep beating a dead horse but it's just a flippin' travesty that these UHDs could be the last physical releases for some of these titles and Disney just keeps ****ing them all up.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Absolutely! There is zero reason to even debate black levels when comparing LCD to OLED.

Sure, there is. It's called 'practical application'. OLED produces a better spec, no question. What is a question is the effective value of that better spec. If you set up your viewing environment well, OLED's deeper blacks will be literally invisible.

[ROSS.T.G.]

I will need to revisit the Disney titles soon. I did some tweaking and repositioned my front soundstage and the LFE and dynamics are greatly improved now. Should sound better than a whoopee cushion at least.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

Aw, I think you deserve a star sticker for that one. Here you go.

80% of 0 is still zero. Congratulations. Your math suggestion just made Samsung equivalent to OLED.


I think you were actually aiming for divide by 0 to get infinity, which would make slightly more sense for sarcasm. However, 1 candlelight would then be infinitely brighter than 0 and thus there is no possible method to effectively compare the two if you subscribed to that line of thought.

I could suggest it's more of a comparison on a scale of 0-100% brightness where 0 is OLED and 100 is a regular backlit LCD panel and thus 80% of the way there would be equivalent to dropping the light output to 20% (i.e. 80% reduction in light when presented with black colors that don't just shut off the panel). In other words, it's estimate of the REDUCTION in light output with black light compared to the ideal. However, that's clearly beyond your line of thinking as your post so aptly demonstrates so I won't hold my breath.

So which LCD TV are you using to represent the 100% endpoint?

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Sure, there is. It's called 'practical application'. OLED produces a better spec, no question. What is a question is the effective value of that better spec. If you set up your viewing environment well, OLED's deeper blacks will be literally invisible.

There are more benefits to having each pixel generate its own light than just perfect blacks. Infinite contrast, some of the highest color volume you'll find on a TV (indeed, LG OLEDs have a higher color volume than the LCD King, Z9D), and the fact that you do not have to deal with the side effects of local dimming. On LCD TVs, there will always be a compromise between peak brightness and reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, and since many manufacturers opt for reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, LCD TVs will not reach the actual peak brightness in real content that they do in test patterns. Add to that the fact that viewing content in a room with ambient lighting further diminishes your perception of the specular highlights, and you lose a lot of the perceived "pop" of those highlights, in comparison to watching the same content in the pitch dark. Even with a good local dimming algorithm, there will still be content that will push it past its limits.

OLEDs have their downsides as well, but as the peak brightness and tone mapping continue to improve, it makes less and less sense to go with an LCD TV.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

So which LCD TV are you using to represent the 100% endpoint?

LG's finest non OLED.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

There are more benefits to having each pixel generate its own light than just perfect blacks. Infinite contrast, some of the highest color volume you'll find on a TV (indeed, LG OLEDs have a higher color volume than the LCD King, Z9D), and the fact that you do not have to deal with the side effects of local dimming. On LCD TVs, there will always be a compromise between peak brightness and reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, and since many manufacturers opt for reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, LCD TVs will not reach the actual peak brightness in real content that they do in test patterns. Add to that the fact that viewing content in a room with ambient lighting further diminishes your perception of the specular highlights, and you lose a lot of the perceived "pop" of those highlights, in comparison to watching the same content in the pitch dark. Even with a good local dimming algorithm, there will still be content that will push it past its limits.

OLEDs have their downsides as well, but as the peak brightness and tone mapping continue to improve, it makes less and less sense to go with an LCD TV.

LCDs do better colour volume at high brightness. OLEDs do better colour voume at low brightness (see slide from SMPTE presentation below). And that pretty much sums up the key benefit of each tech in a nutshell, only now that we're dealing with an absolute luminance source (PQ) rather than relative (gamma) then the more brightness a set has is a core ingredient of getting optimal HDR performance, not just 'pop' or picture quality as a whole - for which OLED excels, no doubt - but making sure that the specific HDR colour volume extends into those upper brightness registers. I only watch my ZD9 in the dark BTW

[Agent Kay]

You don't bias light it?

[Geoff D]

Nope.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

LCDs do better colour volume at high brightness. OLEDs do better colour voume at low brightness (see slide from SMPTE presentation below). And that pretty much sums up the key benefit of each tech in a nutshell, only now that we're dealing with an absolute luminance source (PQ) rather than relative (gamma) then the more brightness a set has is a core ingredient of getting optimal HDR performance, not just 'pop' or picture quality as a whole - for which OLED excels, no doubt - but making sure that the specific HDR colour volume extends into those upper brightness registers. I only watch my ZD9 in the dark BTW

I've got an LCD too, so I know the benefits it brings to HDR content. I love my LCD. However, I would still take an OLED with around 800 nits or greater over an LCD with 1500 nits or greater, so long as it has good tone mapping. What plagued the 2017 and earlier LG OLEDs was the tone mapping that resulted in some content being way too dim. The 2018 models have tone mapping more in line with the Panasonic OLEDs, which don't sacrifice much APL while still retaining specular highlight detail.

An LG B8 or a Panasonic EZ1000 would be much more preferable over an LCD, for me, when I upgrade next. The local dimming on even the best FALD sets can be aggravating at times.

[Geoff D]

Well that's just it, I think getting close that magical 75% mark of what the PQ EOTF can do (1000 nits) without ABL smashing it to shit would be a big step up for OLED in terms of sheer HDR performance alone, along with a stock HDR10 tone map that isn't as awful as, say, what LG has persisted with these last few years (though they've FINALLY heeded the lesson). The Sony AF9 could be one to watch.

[LordoftheRings]

...And Panasonic OLED.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

There are more benefits to having each pixel generate its own light than just perfect blacks. Infinite contrast, some of the highest color volume you'll find on a TV (indeed, LG OLEDs have a higher color volume than the LCD King, Z9D), and the fact that you do not have to deal with the side effects of local dimming. On LCD TVs, there will always be a compromise between peak brightness and reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, and since many manufacturers opt for reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, LCD TVs will not reach the actual peak brightness in real content that they do in test patterns. Add to that the fact that viewing content in a room with ambient lighting further diminishes your perception of the specular highlights, and you lose a lot of the perceived "pop" of those highlights, in comparison to watching the same content in the pitch dark. Even with a good local dimming algorithm, there will still be content that will push it past its limits.

OLEDs have their downsides as well, but as the peak brightness and tone mapping continue to improve, it makes less and less sense to go with an LCD TV.

Yeah. A lot of us bought our 4k HDR televisions in 2016 when the format was getting going, and back then there were many real reasons to go with a high-end LCD over an OLED. Better tone-mapping, greater nits, better color volume. OLEDs have improved with HDR though to the point where now those reasons are less and less important. There's still some stuff LCD does better, as Geoff points out, but if I were buying today instead of 2016 I think OLED would be a better way to go overall. Maybe next upgrade.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Nope.

I was lurking this thread on the throne earlier and you motivated me to try watching a UHD with my bias lighting off. I watched Spider-Man Homecoming and even in the end fight, which takes place in the dark with lots of HDR highlights, I didn't notice any blooming or other issues with the local-dimming. Only negative I really saw was that the black bars were a little greyer in dark scenes, but not that bad. Might try it out more.

I wonder if Samsung improved the local-dimming a bit with firmware because I'm pretty sure I did the same tests when I bought the thing and saw relatively significant blooming.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

There are more benefits to having each pixel generate its own light than just perfect blacks. Infinite contrast, some of the highest color volume you'll find on a TV (indeed, LG OLEDs have a higher color volume than the LCD King, Z9D), and the fact that you do not have to deal with the side effects of local dimming. On LCD TVs, there will always be a compromise between peak brightness and reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, and since many manufacturers opt for reducing blooming/maintaining deep blacks, LCD TVs will not reach the actual peak brightness in real content that they do in test patterns. Add to that the fact that viewing content in a room with ambient lighting further diminishes your perception of the specular highlights, and you lose a lot of the perceived "pop" of those highlights, in comparison to watching the same content in the pitch dark. Even with a good local dimming algorithm, there will still be content that will push it past its limits.

OLEDs have their downsides as well, but as the peak brightness and tone mapping continue to improve, it makes less and less sense to go with an LCD TV.

But isn't it true that with perfect blacks/infinite contrast also comes a slight crush of details near 0% black? It seems that with oled, if we set things up to achieve 0% black we also lose some details between 0% and 5%, and if we want to scoop out those details out of black then we lose the perfect blacks altogether

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

But isn't it true that with perfect blacks/infinite contrast also comes a slight crush of details near 0% black? It seems that with oled, if we set things up to achieve 0% black we also lose some details between 0% and 5%, and if we want to scoop out those details out of black then we lose the perfect blacks altogether

To some extent, yes this is true about near black. However, many of us have deployed some tactics to mitigate most of that problem using the service menu and the luminance adjustments built into the set. AVS had a whole thread about it and it really does help in the "near" black department and you do NOT lose absolute black. It’s still not perfect but my set had an easily visible improvement using these tweaks.

It does require going into the service menu which might scare some folks. But it’s easy to do and is totally worth it. Like I said, it isn’t a 100% solution but it improves near blacks quite noticeably without mucking up your zero blacks.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

To some extent, yes this is true about near black. However, many of us have deployed some tactics to mitigate most of that problem using the service menu and the luminance adjustments built into the set. AVS had a whole thread about it and it really does help in the "near" black department and you do NOT lose absolute black. It’s still not perfect but my set had an easily visible improvement using these tweaks.

It does require going into the service menu which might scare some folks. But it’s easy to do and is totally worth it. Like I said, it isn’t a 100% solution but it improves near blacks quite noticeably without mucking up your zero blacks.

I tried to simply slightly raise luminance at 5% but that created some artefacts near black

[ROSS.T.G.]

I don’t see black crush on my OLED, in fact I see more detail than my 2 previous LED’s. But I also watch in a completely dark room, zero ambient light. When I watch standard BD I use ISF Dark. I have 3 calibration discs that show zero crush or white clipping at my default settings. Gamma is left at BT.1886. The only complaint I do have about my OLED is some minor banding in near black. Luckily mine isn’t as bad as others. It’s funny because I returned my VIZIO P65E1 because the DSE was so bad it was distracting. Worst I had ever seen on a panel. I didn’t feel like trying my luck with another and ended up getting the 65B7 for the same price as the P, so I snagged it for $1,600 CDN.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

I don’t see black crush on my OLED, in fact I see more detail than my 2 previous LED’s. But I also watch in a completely dark room, zero ambient light. When I watch standard BD I use ISF Dark. I have 3 calibration discs that show zero crush or white clipping at my default settings. Gamma is left at BT.1886. The only complaint I do have about my OLED is some minor banding in near black. Luckily mine isn’t as bad as others. It’s funny because I returned my VIZIO P65E1 because the DSE was so bad it was distracting. Worst I had ever seen on a panel. I didn’t feel like trying my luck with another and ended up getting the 65B7 for the same price as the P, so I snagged it for $1,600 CDN.

I too watch in dark room. Maybe you have a better panel but the majority of feedback from other owners all agrees that with Oled the perfect blacks are reflected also by a loss of details near 5%.
It's also har dto tell when the loss of perfect blacks is due to settings or to the source we are playing. Sometimes when the screen goes black, the bars are true black but the content inside the bar has a glow