Black Panther 4K UHD (2018)

[ROSS.T.G.]

@ VonMagnum

I don’t want to clog up this thread anymore with our arguing so I’ll try and be brief. I’ll say this for the last time. I didn’t put down your QLED. I simply corrected you when you said the black levels are near the OLED because from my own personal experience it’s not true, I’ve owned LED’s that have better but like I said the brightness and colour of your set is better than some including mine. Then you decided I was attacking you so you sent me a backhanded comment about the OLED. As for the projector debate. I think it’s obvious we have different opinions of what looks good and what doesn’t so let’s leave it at that. As for the making fun of, it is an Internet forum and you need thick skin if you’re posting your opinions in a strong manner. Everyone gets called out and tempers rise because we’re the only crazy people left that actually care about physical media anymore. I’m moving on.

[RockyIII]

[QUOTE=ROSS.T.G.;15457133]As for the projector debate. I think it’s obvious we have different opinions of what looks good and what doesn’t so let’s leave it at that. QUOTE]
Are you pro TV but not fond of projector technology?

[ROSS.T.G.]

[quote=RockyIII;15457143]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

As for the projector debate. I think it’s obvious we have different opinions of what looks good and what doesn’t so let’s leave it at that. QUOTE]
Are you pro TV but not fond of projector technology?

No I like projectors, I’ve own 3 or 4 but for 4K with HDR I prefer a panel which is why I sold my projector.

[RockyIII]

[quote=ROSS.T.G.;15457151]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

No I like projectors, I’ve own 3 or 4 but for 4K with HDR I prefer a panel which is why I sold my projector.

Never seen an actual 4K HDR projector in person. I have a short throw laser projector which can accept 4K HDR sources, but that's not the same.

[ROSS.T.G.]

[quote=RockyIII;15457164]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

Never seen an actual 4K HDR projector in person. I have a short throw laser projector which can accept 4K HDR sources, but that's not the same.

The good ones like the JVC’s are in a class of their own and look very nice. I briefly thought about getting one since I already had the setup for a projector but I prefer panels for various reasons.

[RockyIII]

[quote=ROSS.T.G.;15457236]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

The good ones like the JVC’s are in a class of their own and look very nice. I briefly thought about getting one since I already had the setup for a projector but I prefer panels for various reasons.

For once, panels are more low-maintenance, just plug n play

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

I don't know what you think "appropriate" is, but if you're seeing "blocky" type compression artifacts in the black levels, I can only assume your screen is WAY too bright for 2K sources. I don't see ANY "blocky" type compression artifacts in the black levels in that opening jungle scene here AT ALL. NONE. Not unless I crank up the contrast and brightness to the point where black is no longer black anymore.

I don't believe I said "blocky" despite you quoting that. It was not compression artifacts, it was digital noise. Two different things. Also you have not watched the 4k disc from what I gather, so you'd have no idea what I'm talking about. Once you get into UHD on a good HDR display you'll see that many, many dark scenes are boosted on the BD compared to the UHD, which can make the BD looks noisy, flat or grey by comparison. The opening tanker fight in The Expendables is another good example.

You seem to default to assuming other people are ignorant schmoes, but while not all of us are Super Armchair Gods like Geoffy we're a relatively experienced lot with this stuff.

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

I don’t want to clog up this thread anymore with our arguing so I’ll try and be brief. I’ll say this for the last time. I didn’t put down your QLED. I simply corrected you when you said the black levels are near the OLED because from my own personal experience it’s not true, I’ve owned LED’s that have better but like I said the brightness and colour of your set is better than some including mine. Then you decided I was attacking you so you sent me a backhanded comment about the OLED. As for the projector debate. I think it’s obvious we have different opinions of what looks good and what doesn’t so let’s leave it at that. As for the making fun of, it is an Internet forum and you need thick skin if you’re posting your opinions in a strong manner. Everyone gets called out and tempers rise because we’re the only crazy people left that actually care about physical media anymore. I’m moving on.

While local-dimming has truly gotten better and better and really impresses nowadays on a good LCD, there's no denying that OLED kicks its ass with infinite contrast. Anyone with any LCD set should be able to say "OLED has better blacks" because it's true. There are other areas where an LCD might excel depending on the models compared (nits, color volume, tone mapping, etc.), but an OLED has better blacks. Pissing matches are annoying and facts are facts.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Anyone with any LCD set should be able to say "OLED has better blacks" because it's true.

It certainly is. However, with the right viewing conditions, returns can diminish to the point of irrelevance. To wit: I don't have an OLED, but in the darkened room I watch in, my screen blacks cannot get effectively blacker. An OLED with brighter highlights than my set's could give me an advantage, but deeper blacks would literally not be visible in my set-up so an OLED would offer me no practical benefit there, even though the numbers would undoubtedly be better on paper.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

It certainly is. However, with the right viewing conditions, returns can diminish to the point of irrelevance. To wit: I don't have an OLED, but in the darkened room I watch in, my screen blacks cannot get effectively blacker. An OLED with brighter highlights could give me an advantage, but deeper blacks would literally not be visible in my set-up so an OLED would offer me no practical benefit there, even though the numbers would undoubtedly be better on paper.

Sure, sure. I have always used a bias light so for me OLED blacks are much less important. I doubt I could have gotten the wife to agree to OLED prices, but even if I could at the time I bought my UHD TV I might have gone LCD anyway for higher nits and better color volume, since my bias light makes everything look pure black anyway. So it does depend on preferences and setup, for sure.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I don't believe I said "blocky" despite you quoting that. It was not compression artifacts, it was digital noise. Two different things. Also you have not watched the 4k disc from what I gather, so you'd have no idea what I'm talking about. Once you get into UHD on a good HDR display you'll see that many, many dark scenes are boosted on the BD compared to the UHD, which can make the BD looks noisy, flat or grey by comparison. The opening tanker fight in The Expendables is another good example.

You seem to default to assuming other people are ignorant schmoes, but while not all of us are Super Armchair Gods like Geoffy we're a relatively experienced lot with this stuff.



While local-dimming has truly gotten better and better and really impresses nowadays on a good LCD, there's no denying that OLED kicks its ass with infinite contrast. Anyone with any LCD set should be able to say "OLED has better blacks" because it's true. There are other areas where an LCD might excel depending on the models compare (nits, color volume, tone mapping, etc.), but an OLED has better blacks. Pissing matches are annoying and facts are facts.

Yeah for sure. If I said my OLED had the same or near nits as a top notch LED I would be laughed at. LED’s have come a long way for blacks reaching plasma levels. As much as I love my OLED and wouldn’t part with it I miss some of the characteristics of a good LED. Some people just hate when you correct them I guess.

[BrownianMotion]

Another thing to keep in mind about the OLED vs LCD debate is something that Vincent Teoh outlined in one of his videos. Regardless of how good an LCD's local dimming is, an LCD will hardly ever reach the same peak brightness in actual content that it does in test patterns - although the better FALD sets will get closer. This is because the local dimming algorithm has to balance between peak brightness and reducing blooming. Shadow detail will also take a hit on an LCD, depending on how aggressive the local dimming algorithm is - see the 2018 Samsung Q9F as a prime example.

[Mobe1969]

I'm all a bit flummoxed when it comes to more and more nits. As a 4kprojector owner with a dark purpose built room, I find it hard thing the amount of brightness the projector can do, and run mine in low lamp mode, 60% manual Iris. I know the concept of it is to reproduce reality as close as possible, but I don't want to get retinal burn seeing a shot of the sun on-screen. I like how it is done on a projector with tone mapping curves. My eyes only have a single Iris setting for any instant in time, and if it is too bright, my eyes can't see the detail. I can pause and shade the bright backlighting with my hand and my eye adjusts. Maybe at a smaller image with a lot of ambient light it'd be a different story.

If 110" hdr panel TV's are available, or a seamless wall array, I might consider it. But I'm not sure.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Mobe1969

I'm all a bit flummoxed when it comes to more and more nits. As a 4kprojector owner with a dark purpose built room, I find it hard thing the amount of brightness the projector can do, and run mine in low lamp mode, 60% manual Iris. I know the concept of it is to reproduce reality as close as possible, but I don't want to get retinal burn seeing a shot of the sun on-screen. I like how it is done on a projector with tone mapping curves. My eyes only have a single Iris setting for any instant in time, and if it is too bright, my eyes can't see the detail. I can pause and shade the bright backlighting with my hand and my eye adjusts. Maybe at a smaller image with a lot of ambient light it'd be a different story.

Well the issue is that these HDR discs are mastered at a certain nit level. When a display does not meet that nit level then it's all about mapping the image down to the maximum nits of the display. This is why the term "tone-mapping" is mentioned a lot around here, because it's a key component to getting a good picture from an HDR 10 disc. Dolby Vision does the mapping instead of the TV, which is why it benefits dimmer displays more. You're still not seeing the nits the disc author intended, but you are getting a more or less reasonable facsimile, just without the brightness.

Projectors are much dimmer than an LCD or even OLED, so they need really good tone-mapping to get the right look. I'm not sure which of them excel in this area, I don't read much about projectors.

Color volume is also crucial and high-end LCDs tend to do better with that, but as I said I haven't read much about projectors.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1

Infinity War is the highest grossing MCU film worldwide at over $2 billion. Domestically (US only) Black Panther is the highest at $700 million. Black Panther is also the highest grossing solo MCU film internationally (read: highest grossing non-Avengers MCU film) at $1.3 billion worldwide, overtaking the previous record holder Iron Man 3 which earned $1.2 billion worldwide.

If you’re only looking at domestic gross or are not counting Avengers films then Black Panther is the highest grossing MCU film.

Thanks for the information. So Black Panther is the highest grossing domestic Marvel Cinematic Universe movie. But as you mentioned the highest worldwide domestic Marvel Cinematic movie is Avengers: Infinity War with a estimated budget of $316-400 million dollars and box office sales of over $2.046 billion dollars. Its amazing how popular and how much money all these super hero comic book style movies generate. Thanks to computer technology advancement there is no limits to what can be created for a movie.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I don't believe I said "blocky" despite you quoting that. It was not compression artifacts, it was digital noise.

Whatever you saw, my point was that it's NOT THERE on my computer monitor or my projector. At least I'm not seeing it with my settings. There's no noticeable noise. No artifacts. No nothing. It's dark. It's really dark in those scenes. But dark isn't noise.

I've watched SD on my QLED. It looks AWFUL. It does NOT look awful on my plasma or my projector. Do a search and see how many hate SD material on 4K sets in general. Cheap bloody scalers. I don't know if the scaler is to blame here (harder to screw up a basic scan double than other things), but it's something.

Two different things. Also you have not watched the 4k disc from what I gather

I chose not to double dip on what I think is a mediocre movie at best. I also normally choose 3D over 4K and a 92" screen over a 55" one.

so you'd have no idea what I'm talking about.

Oh no. No no no, I've never seen any kind of digital noise before.

Once you get into UHD on a good HDR display you'll see that many, many dark scenes are boosted on the BD compared to the UHD, which can make the BD looks noisy, flat or grey by comparison. The opening tanker fight in The Expendables is another good example.

So I gather you spend all your time doing A/B comparisons between the UHD and HD versions? I guess you have nothing else better to do in your life? Frankly, I don't particularly want to watch that movie again all the way through the rest of my life.

But if you're trying to say the UHD looks much better than the 2K version, well... would you expect otherwise?

You seem to default to assuming other people are ignorant schmoes, but while not all of us are Super Armchair Gods like Geoffy we're a relatively experienced lot with this stuff.

What I assume is based on what people post. If you say something is horrible looking (or blown out to shit or whatever other colorful phrase) and full of artifacts or noise or whatever and I've seen it myself on a non-4K set and it's NOT here, well what do you think I'm going to assume? I'm going to assume you have something set wrong or your TV is doing something to the signal or you're picky on a whole new level.

While local-dimming has truly gotten better and better and really impresses nowadays on a good LCD, there's no denying that OLED kicks its ass with infinite contrast. Anyone with any LCD set should be able to say "OLED has better blacks" because it's true.

Show me ONCE where ANYONE said OLED wasn't better for black levels. I said QLED is now "approaching" (I believe I said about 80% of the way there) OLED black levels and you and Mr. Happy had a shit fit over it. Now you'd rather say it's 75% the way there or that ANY bloom what-so-ever drives you nuts, OK, but saying it's not even CLOSE is a crock of poo. Compared to a regular LCD, it's night and day better this year and good enough where I'd rather not risk CNN logo burn or have to shut the drapes all the time because the best it can do is 500 nits.

If all you saw were 2017 models, I'd at least know why, but to say the 2018 Q8F and Q9F black levels aren't night and day improved is dishonest at best. No one said they were "better". I said the difference is now small enough I'd choose not to have burn-in issues and dim output (that's always an issue) over a little extra light bleed or grey in a small area of the screen that's only there in dark scenes to begin with.

There are other areas where an LCD might excel depending on the models compared (nits, color volume, tone mapping, etc.), but an OLED has better blacks. Pissing matches are annoying and facts are facts.

Who is the one pissing here? I make one comment/opinion and two people start pissing because they feel their purchases are threatened or something. If you're happy with the UHD, great. Stop pissing on everyone else's parade and they will stop pissing on yours.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

Show me ONCE where ANYONE said OLED wasn't better for black levels. I said QLED is now "approaching" (I believe I said about 80% of the way there) OLED black levels

What's 80% of 0?

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

Whatever you saw, my point was that it's NOT THERE on my computer monitor or my projector. At least I'm not seeing it with my settings. There's no noticeable noise. No artifacts. No nothing. It's dark. It's really dark in those scenes. But dark isn't noise.

I've watched SD on my QLED. It looks AWFUL. It does NOT look awful on my plasma or my projector. Do a search and see how many hate SD material on 4K sets in general. Cheap bloody scalers. I don't know if the scaler is to blame here (harder to screw up a basic scan double than other things), but it's something.

Samsungs have great scalers, it has nothing to do with that. You're way too aggressive and frustrating to debate with honestly, so last thing I'll say is that I'm not claiming the Black Panther BD looks terrible. I'm saying that opening jungle fight looks blown out thanks to limited range, and that flatter, brighter look causes minor issues with the digital photography to show. Once you're used to HDR that kind of thing stands right out and annoys.

You can find that insulting if you want, but it just is what it is.

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

What's 80% of 0?

Aw, I think you deserve a star sticker for that one. Here you go.

80% of 0 is still zero. Congratulations. Your math suggestion just made Samsung equivalent to OLED.


I think you were actually aiming for divide by 0 to get infinity, which would make slightly more sense for sarcasm. However, 1 candlelight would then be infinitely brighter than 0 and thus there is no possible method to effectively compare the two if you subscribed to that line of thought.

I could suggest it's more of a comparison on a scale of 0-100% brightness where 0 is OLED and 100 is a regular backlit LCD panel and thus 80% of the way there would be equivalent to dropping the light output to 20% (i.e. 80% reduction in light when presented with black colors that don't just shut off the panel). In other words, it's estimate of the REDUCTION in light output with black light compared to the ideal. However, that's clearly beyond your line of thinking as your post so aptly demonstrates so I won't hold my breath.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Samsungs have great scalers, it has nothing to do with that.

Of course it doesn't. That's why SD looks like SHIT on a Samsung and most 4K sets for that matter. The scaling is SO great on them.

Hey boss, I think I'll just bow out of this conversation right now because frankly it's an absolute waste of my time (and yours too probably). Enjoy your "blown out shit". I'll be thinking of you the next time I watch that movie (never).

[LordoftheRings]

Yerba Buena "Wassamatter Baby?" - YouTube

Yerba Buena "Bla Bla" - YouTube

[ROSS.T.G.]

This thread is officially gonzo.