Star Wars: The Original Trilogy (1977-1983)

[TimD]

Something that doesn't seem to be discussed much is the flipped shots of Fett raising his gun and the subsequent nod. Apparently the angle as shot didn't match the spatial relationships in other shots. I thought it was odd that new footage of Fett was filmed but the flipped images weren't replaced.

[Packerfan75]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

You do realize that there were photos of Kylo unmasked before the movie came out, right? Didn't you even know what Adam Driver himself looked like?

I stayed away from any and all potential spoilers. No pictures, no rumors, nothing. All I really saw were the teasers and trailers so when Kylo takes off his helmet in the film, that's the first I knew about it. I had never even heard of Adam Driver before.

[Spike M.]

You're kinda missing the entire point of Kylo Ren on literally every front if you think his mask should've stayed on.

Unless you're just passively saying it in a "I KNOW, but stillll...." kind of way.

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by Packerfan75

I stayed away from any and all potential spoilers. No pictures, no rumors, nothing. All I really saw were the teasers and trailers so when Kylo takes off his helmet in the film, that's the first I knew about it. I had never even heard of Adam Driver before.

What did you think of the character in TFA and going forward?

I think he has the potential to be the most memorable character in the Sequel Trilogy, if handled as well as he was in TFA (in terms of the writing).

[Josep5349]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

These "comics are canon!" comments are always amusing to me. They will never impact the movies, they will never be referenced, and if a movie ever wants to contradict them it will without hesitation. "Canon spin-off media" is always an exercise in marketing.

Different playing field now. The time gap between ROTJ and TFA covers a lot of important events. These may or may not be mentioned in future films, but not everything is not going to be explained in the films, the only official, and canonical, source for some of the answers will be in books or comics.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Packerfan75

Now that we know they look exactly the same is almost as bad as Fett's exit into the Sarlaac Pit.

Stormtroopers are not clones!

[Packerfan75]

Originally Posted by dgoswald

What did you think of the character in TFA and going forward?

I think he has the potential to be the most memorable character in the Sequel Trilogy, if handled as well as he was in TFA (in terms of the writing).

I love how Kylo began. He was very evil and showed some serious power (stopping the laser blast was awesome) but he seemed to fizzle near the end. I really didn't like that Finn held up against him, even getting a hit on him and Rey pretty much bested him. I would've liked Rey to have to earn that through training and maybe have a better fight in VIII or IX. I get that he was injured and he's an emotional guy but he lost some of his intimidation factor that he had at the beginning. He does have potential though and I hope he matures and comes back stronger after his training with Snoke.

[Packerfan75]

Originally Posted by matirocker

Stormtroopers are not clones!

Not from Episode VII going forward but Episode II says they were as well as Boba Fett. I didn't want it to be that way either but that's how George wrote it. Unfortunately, If it's canon, we can't change that.

[Josep5349]

Originally Posted by Packerfan75

Not from Episode VII going forward but Episode II says they were as well as Boba Fett. I didn't want it to be that way either but that's how George wrote it. Unfortunately, If it's canon, we can't change that.

The clone programme was discontinued shortly after ROTS. By the time of A New Hope stormtroopers were human. That's canon.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Josep5349

The clone programme was discontinued shortly after ROTS. By the time of A New Hope stormtroopers were human. That's canon.

Lucas says in the commentaries and BTS materials that the Stormtroopers in the original trilogy are clones. He couldn't have made this more obvious in Attack of the Clones. This was supposedly retconned in some books or cartoons I never read/watched, but they were intended and written to be Stormtroopers in Attack of the Clones.

My own personal opinion: they're both, clones and human conscripts as the clones die off.

[Josep5349]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Lucas says in the commentaries and BTS materials that the Stormtroopers in the original trilogy are clones. He couldn't have made this more obvious in Attack of the Clones. This was supposedly retconned in some books or cartoons I never read/watched, but they were intended and written to be Stormtroopers in Attack of the Clones.

My own personal opinion: they're both, clones and human conscripts as the clones die off.

Lucasfilm have confirmed stormtroopers are no longer clones by the time of the OT. That's just the way it is.

[navydavey]

Originally Posted by Packerfan75

I love how Kylo began. He was very evil and showed some serious power (stopping the laser blast was awesome) but he seemed to fizzle near the end. I really didn't like that Finn held up against him, even getting a hit on him and Rey pretty much bested him. I would've liked Rey to have to earn that through training and maybe have a better fight in VIII or IX. I get that he was injured and he's an emotional guy but he lost some of his intimidation factor that he had at the beginning. He does have potential though and I hope he matures and comes back stronger after his training with Snoke.

This is word for word how I feel about the character too

[CinemaBlu]

Originally Posted by Josep5349

Lucasfilm have confirmed stormtroopers are no longer clones by the time of the OT. That's just the way it is.

You're wrong. Lucas himself made it a point to have Jango bump his head on the top of the entryway of Slave I in AOTC because the stormtrooper bumped his head in the doorway in ANH and he was supposed to be Jango's clone. There were definitely still clones in the OT.

[Josep5349]

Originally Posted by CinemaBlu

You're wrong. Lucas himself made it a point to have Jango bump his head on the top of the entryway of Slave I in AOTC because the stormtrooper bumped his head in the doorway in ANH and he was supposed to be Jango's clone. There were definitely still clones in the OT.

That was then, this is now. I'm not wrong, Lucasfilm have confirmed stormtroopers are no longer clones by the time of the OT. Get over it. In the latest versions of the OT Temuera Morrison re-voiced Boba Fett's lines, because we know he is a clone. Did he also re-voice the stormtroopers' lines? Nope. Because they aren't clones.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Josep5349

That was then, this is now. I'm not wrong, Lucasfilm have confirmed stormtroopers are no longer clones by the time of the OT. Get over it. In the latest versions of the OT Temuera Morrison re-voiced Boba Fett's lines, because we know he is a clone. Did he also re-voice the stormtroopers' lines? Nope. Because they aren't clones.

It's a retcon done by a not-movie, is the point.

[Josep5349]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

It's a retcon done by a not-movie, is the point.

Not sure what you mean by not-movie, but I'll go on the basis that you mean it was retconned in the animation series and books rather than in the movies. That's not the case, as evidenced by the Temuera Morrison re-voice.

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by Packerfan75

I love how Kylo began. He was very evil and showed some serious power (stopping the laser blast was awesome) but he seemed to fizzle near the end. I really didn't like that Finn held up against him, even getting a hit on him and Rey pretty much bested him. I would've liked Rey to have to earn that through training and maybe have a better fight in VIII or IX. I get that he was injured and he's an emotional guy but he lost some of his intimidation factor that he had at the beginning. He does have potential though and I hope he matures and comes back stronger after his training with Snoke.

My reply is off-topic and spoilery, hence the tags.

[Show spoiler]I agree with you somewhat on Rey: I believe her ascent from being unaware - on a conscious level - of the Force and all Jedi related things, to besting someone (Kylo) who has had some form of formal training was possibly a tad hasty. As I mentioned a few days ago, I think she could be what they call "a natural"; someone who is so attuned with that side of things, that when they try their hand at, in this instance, lightsabre duelling / Force-related antics, it came to her naturally. Maybe she's just gifted in that way? But, yes, a slightly slower pace of gaining those abilities might have been better, but I'm nitpicking on that front.

Where I disagree with you slightly is on the subject of Kylo Ren. I think he was handled, on the whole, extremely well. With Kylo we need to remember that he is, to all intents and purposes, a young man at odds with his heritage, his family, and himself. We've come across, I'm sure, certain types of youngsters; those cocksure, arrogant types who believe they have it all figured out at a relatively young age. These types believe they're much more sophisticated and world-wise than they actually are, and when they do come across someone better and more effective than themselves (and fall flat on their face), they realise, "You know, maybe I'm not as great as I think I am?" I reckon that's the situation Kylo finds himself in at the end of TFA.

The butting of heads with his mother and father (and deserting them), falling out with his uncle, and the final act of defiance, which was to basically become the successor to his grandfather's "legacy" - or what he assumed the legacy to be - were the acts of a confused and angry young man lashing out at his loved ones. In essence, he was trying to be a big man, but was shown up by Rey as not being as great as he assumed he was. The strutting around planets, Force-choking First Order officers, the voice-modulated mask, the dark flowing robes; they were all the signs of someone "playing" at being the main guy. But when push came to shove he showed himself up as unprepared, over-confident, and naive.

Had he been the finished article in TFA, I'd have been bored out of my head, and I'd have been less than enthusiastic about seeing this over-powered character in Eps 8 and 9. My guess is he'll be smarting from the near-defeat at the hands of Rey in TFA, and that will make him even more determined and decidedly vicious in future films. That's my feeling on the situation.

[Josep5349]

Re Rey vs Ren

[Show spoiler]Rey was exceptionally mentally and emotionally self disciplined. She spent most of her life practicing patience, growing up in a hostile environment meant she had to fend for herself and develop good combat skills. Her mental and emotional discipline allowed her to acces the force. Kylo was physically hurt and emotionally all over the place after killing his father, that, in addition to having anger management issues. We know that being mentally and emotionally out of control can undermine performance. We saw this in ROTS with the Anakin and Kenobi face off. Anakin was stronger with the force but Kenobi was able to beat him because he was in control whilst Anakin was out of control.

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by Josep5349

Re Rey vs Ren

[Show spoiler]Rey was exceptionally mentally and emotionally self disciplined. She spent most of her life practicing patience, growing up in a hostile environment meant she had to fend for herself and develop good combat skills. Her mental and emotional discipline allowed her to acces the force. Kylo was physically hurt and emotionally all over the place after killing his father, that, in addition to having anger management issues. We know that being mentally and emotionally out of control can undermine performance. We saw this in ROTS with the Anakin and Kenobi face off. Anakin was stronger with the force but Kenobi was able to beat him because he was in control whilst Anakin was out of control.

It didn't weaken Anakin when he killed Count Dooku. In fact, letting his anger rise to the surface seemed to give him the advantage.

I think Obi-Wan won because failed to teach Anakin how to jump high enough to not get your legs chopped off.

[Josep5349]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

It didn't weaken Anakin when he killed Count Dooku. In fact, letting his anger rise to the surface seemed to give him the advantage.

Anger is one thing, being in complete emotional disarray is another.
I know Luke got the better of Vader when he lost it, but by that point Vader was passed his best, plus the plan all along was to get Luke sufficiently pissed off to make him turn to the dark side.

I think Obi-Wan won because failed to teach Anakin how to jump high enough to not get your legs chopped off.

That certainly can't be ignored