Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[BluPat]

I'm glad TT is back into releasing physical media but I just feel Kino, Warner Archive, Scream Factory all have a LOT of titles being released and with TT pricing, I'm gonna have to pass. Especially being Region Free if I need to import anything.

[DMRI2006]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Valmont (they supposedly had it before they traded it off to Kino, and KL still never released it due to it being a cut version and Pathe were pricey on loaning out the uncut master)

Half of that is accurate. There actually isn't a "cut version" of VALMONT -- there's only one version of the film, but MGM released a U.S. DVD that was erroneously missing footage.

MGM's HD master is not missing any footage -- and the master is actually pretty good. KL just didn't want to release it because MGM's master wasn't as good as Pathe's then-new fully restored version, and like you said, Pathe wanted too much money to license it.

We decided to cancel the release of Valmont. We could've released the very good MGM HD master, but couldn't get access to the new 4K restoration done by Pathé, who's asking price was ridiculous. We had interviewed the film's producer and were working on other extras.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...00&postcount=6

Even though it's not a 4K restoration, the MGM master actually is perfectly acceptable like MisterLime said at the time -- so it's surprising nobody else released it. KL just didn't want to bother when there was a full restoration that was better out there.

Also, I believe the other MGM titles they also had at some point, but were dropped/traded off due to rights issues, second thoughts, unwilling to pay for new scans, poor HD masters, or only being 576i SD were:

A few of those make sense, but some on your list TT never would have released. Not sure where that list came from, but they went against their aesthetic when they released quality genre titles like FRIGHT NIGHT and THE BLOB, putting them out because they knew they would sell. I severely doubt they would've gone full out for a few of those exploitation titles and trash like Cannon's TEN LITTLE INDIANS or THE HAPPY HOOKER movies. Just can't see Julie Kirgo waxing poetic on those lol

[DMRI2006]

Originally Posted by jayembee

The latter point I could see, but not the former point. At least, I was under the impression that any encore editions were negotiated as a separate deal, so TT wouldn't have done any with the MGM titles unless MGM went along with it.

It doesn't make sense and certainly sounds like pure message board conjecture. Producers like Nick brokered deals with MGM for soundtrack albums for years utilizing very similar contracts -- in fact it was basically the same exact business model -- so they knew precisely what they were doing. The "Encore Edition" of THE TRAIN had to have been negotiated separately.

[koberulz]

The mere fact that TT wasn't sued into oblivion is all the evidence you need that it's total bullshit.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by koberulz

The mere fact that TT wasn't sued into oblivion is all the evidence you need that it's total bullshit.

FWIW, Nick Redman had stated in interviews that the MGM deal ended because Twilight Time weren't releasing their titles fast enough, which made sense to me seeing as MGM are always a bit strapped for cash and would prefer to make bigger deals with labels like Kino who can pump out titles a lot faster and aren't always picky about the PQ on some of the lesser ones.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

FWIW, Nick Redman had stated in interviews that the MGM deal ended because Twilight Time weren't releasing their titles fast enough, which made sense to me seeing as MGM are always a bit strapped for cash and would prefer to make bigger deals with labels like Kino who can pump out titles a lot faster and aren't always picky about the PQ on some of the lesser ones.

Of course MGM themselves could have released more titles (via Fox distribution). That's on them.

[Gunsnroses092789]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Also, I believe the other MGM titles they also had at some point, but were dropped/traded off due to rights issues, second thoughts, unwilling to pay for new scans, poor HD masters, or only being 576i SD were:

[Show spoiler]The Hallelujah Trail

Lord Love a Duck

Finders Keepers

The Whisperers

Fitzwilly

Attack on the Iron Coast (Shout only had DVD rights part of a separate deal)

Salt and Pepper

Hannibal Brooks

The Last Escape

Crucible of Horror

Shark's Treasure

The Wicked Die Slow

The Happy Hooker films (Scorpion eventually released the 3rd movie)

Sword of the Valiant

Some Girls Do (MGM supposedly had an HD master for this one, but their distribution rights expired and Rank catalog owner ITV were unwilling to work with TT)

Grace Quigley

Jennifer on My Mind

What's the Matter With Helen?

Smile

Slow Dancing in the Big City

Those Lips, Those Eyes

La Cage aux Folles II

The Night of the Shooting Stars (MGM's rights expired and Cohen were planning a release with 4k resto from the Italian rightsholder)

Mata Hari

King Lear (1987)

Ten Little Indians (1989)

The Draughtsman's Contract

Garbo Talks

Rikki and Pete

Touch

Miss Julie (Lionsgate had reobtained some US distribution rights)

The Claim

CQ

Pumpkin

No Such Thing

Evelyn

The Aviator

Youngblood

Where the River Runs Black

Taffin

Masquerade

Spellbinder

Last Rites

A Dry White Season

Liebestraum

CrissCross

The Lover (MGM's rights expired and had went to Pathe, but they were too expensive to licence from)

Six Degrees of Separation

Moll Flanders

Molly

Return to Me

Class

Farewell to the King

Valmont (they supposedly had it before they traded it off to Kino, and KL still never released it due to it being a cut version and Pathe were pricey on loaning out the uncut master)

One Man's Hero

Music from Another Room

Storefront Hitchcock

Konga

The Norseman

Fritz the Cat

The Nine Lives of Fritz the Cat

Rosebud

Where did this list come from?

Also, the Kino Lorber Insider said that TT had China Doll (1958) but never released it.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

FWIW, Nick Redman had stated in interviews that the MGM deal ended because Twilight Time weren't releasing their titles fast enough, which made sense to me seeing as MGM are always a bit strapped for cash and would prefer to make bigger deals with labels like Kino who can pump out titles a lot faster and aren't always picky about the PQ on some of the lesser ones.

Then again, there were a few titles here and there where it was obvious that TT wasn't being very picky, either (and not just with MGM titles).

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

FWIW, Nick Redman had stated in interviews that the MGM deal ended because Twilight Time weren't releasing their titles fast enough, which made sense to me seeing as MGM are always a bit strapped for cash and would prefer to make bigger deals with labels like Kino who can pump out titles a lot faster and aren't always picky about the PQ on some of the lesser ones.

Ah, so Nick Redman had stated the real reason in the past! TMYK!

Originally Posted by DMRI2006

Half of that is accurate. There actually isn't a "cut version" of VALMONT -- there's only one version of the film, but MGM released a U.S. DVD that was erroneously missing footage.

MGM's HD master is not missing any footage -- and the master is actually pretty good. KL just didn't want to release it because MGM's master wasn't as good as Pathe's then-new fully restored version, and like you said, Pathe wanted too much money to license it.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...00&postcount=6

Might as well give more context. Orion made some pacing trims to the US theatrical release of Valmont, and that was the version used on the video releases and the DVD. MGM later created a new HD master from an interneg that was fully uncut like the UK/French version, but also did a "sanitized" version of that transfer for HDTV/broadcast reasons. When Twilight Time had it in one of their earlier MGM packages, MGM had only given them the sanitized HDTV version and assumed it was the only cut master they had. When Kino got it, they indeed asked for the uncut HD master but learned of a better master Pathe had, which lead to them finding out it was more work/$$$ than expected on a release that wouldn't be a very good seller and dropped their plans.

Originally Posted by Gunsnroses092789

Where did this list come from?

Also, the Kino Lorber Insider said that TT had China Doll (1958) but never released it.

TT rejected the HD master for China Doll due to being "problematic". Kino had rejected some MGM titles for similar reasons. They abandoned Charge of the Light Brigade not only due to the poor HD master of the shorter US version, but high costs of doing new scans for that and the longer UK version. Silent Witness (1991) was another they dropped because the master was 1080i, and they won't do any interlaced HD releases after CBS gave them a shitty master for the very poor selling Back Roads).

Some hundred pages back in this thread, a banned user (that may have worked for Twilght Time or was in the know) had posted a list of the Sony/Fox/MGM titles TT had and dropped/traded off due to those various reasons. Their posts were deleted in waves of "inappropriate" and "political" purgings. Some titles like the Happy Hookers were simply part of whatever package MGM licenced to them, and traded them off for different ones not just because they were SD but due to the obvious fact they wouldn't fit in the line like DMRI2006 said.

Those posts also had tons of dropped Fox and Sony titles in there too, but I recall some of the MGM ones later being released by Shout/Kino/Scorpion/Criterion. I believe a lot of the Fox titles they had dropped were in SD only or cropped/pan and scanned HD (Teenage Rebel being one). Fox and Sony won't allow third parties to do their own new scans of their materials.

Originally Posted by jayembee

Then again, there were a few titles here and there where it was obvious that TT wasn't being very picky, either (and not just with MGM titles).

The Blob and Fright Night were part of the Sony packages that had Christine and some of the bigger ones. They didn't know how would do before they saw the results and did an Encore Special Edition of the latter. Sony saw the huge numbers Christine and Guess Who's Coming to Dinner did and wouldn't allow TT to renew or do further Encore Editions with them, but did offer two titles to replace them.

[bradleydavid5]

I’m really trying to track down a bluray of TT’s Too Late Blues. I don’t know where else to ask this and i know it’s a stretch but if anybody here has it i would love to set up a trade or buy your copy.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by bradleydavid5

I’m really trying to track down a bluray of TT’s Too Late Blues. I don’t know where else to ask this and i know it’s a stretch but if anybody here has it i would love to set up a trade or buy your copy.

Olive released “Too Late Blues”.

[bradleydavid5]

Oh! Yeah, i know. I made a mistake. I confused TT with Eureka for some reason.. smh. Thanks

[Gunsnroses092789]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Those posts also had tons of dropped Fox and Sony titles in there too, but I recall some of the MGM ones later being released by Shout/Kino/Scorpion/Criterion. I believe a lot of the Fox titles they had dropped were in SD only or cropped/pan and scanned HD (Teenage Rebel being one). Fox and Sony won't allow third parties to do their own new scans of their materials.
.

Do you remember any of the Fox titles they dropped or didn’t release? I’m sure Fallen Angel and You Were Never Lovelier were a couple.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Twilight Time had Fallen Angel, but were picky about the so-so HD master Fox had at the time. Fox were working on a 4k remaster of it, but the Disnee buyout happened and all of Fox's departments were laid off. Harry and Tonto was another they had, but dropped because at the time they licenced it (around 2012 or so) Fox only had a "problematic" HD master for it. Fox did eventually finish the 4k restoration and released it on BD in Japan in 2015 https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Harry...lu-ray/125714/. I heard somewhere in the KL forum that Kino tried to get it with the 4k resto, but it ether wasn't available or was licenced to someone else (possibly Criterion or TT again).

TT were set to release The Paper Chase in 2019 as it had a 4k remaster, but Fox made a mistake in the licence as it turned out they had licenced it to Criterion in a package deal with The Rose and some others.

Alien Nation and I think Shock Treatment were others TT had, but were waiting for Fox to complete new 4k remasters of.

Sony only had a SD master for You Were Never Lovelier at the time TT were offered it. They were probably waiting for Grover Crisp's team to complete a 4k resto, but with TT's problems and all it probably won't ever happen now, unless Sony does a new deal with Screen Archives. Otherwise, expect that one to come from Mill Creek or Sony themselves.

[Dailyan]

I own the Japanese Blu of "Harry and Tonto" and it's absolutely not from a 4K master.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

I own the Japanese Blu of "Harry and Tonto" and it's absolutely not from a 4K master.

Interesting! I heard reports and screengrabs it was touted as a 4k remaster, though it could have been the Australian Shock Blu as that probably came out later.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by Gunsnroses092789

Do you remember any of the Fox titles they dropped or didn’t release? I’m sure Fallen Angel and You Were Never Lovelier were a couple.

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Twilight Time had Fallen Angel, but were picky about the so-so HD master Fox had at the time. Fox were working on a 4k remaster of it, but the Disnee buyout happened and all of Fox's departments were laid off. Harry and Tonto was another they had, but dropped because at the time they licenced it (around 2012 or so) Fox only had a "problematic" HD master for it. Fox did eventually finish the 4k restoration and released it on BD in Japan in 2015 https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Harry...lu-ray/125714/. I heard somewhere in the KL forum that Kino tried to get it with the 4k resto, but it ether wasn't available or was licenced to someone else (possibly Criterion or TT again).

TT were set to release The Paper Chase in 2019 as it had a 4k remaster, but Fox made a mistake in the licence as it turned out they had licenced it to Criterion in a package deal with The Rose and some others.

Alien Nation and I think Shock Treatment were others TT had, but were waiting for Fox to complete new 4k remasters of.

Sony only had a SD master for You Were Never Lovelier at the time TT were offered it. They were probably waiting for Grover Crisp's team to complete a 4k resto, but with TT's problems and all it probably won't ever happen now, unless Sony does a new deal with Screen Archives. Otherwise, expect that one to come from Mill Creek or Sony themselves.

From Fox, TT also had:

Centennial Summer, which was dropped due to an unspecified rights conflict.
The Iron Horse, which was waiting on Fox to complete a restoration. The restoration was put on hold during the Disney buy-out, and (as far as I know) still hasn't been finished.
Gorilla at Large. Not sure what the hold-up was on that. Might've been waiting on Fox to restore it or create an HD master.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Originally Posted by jayembee

From Fox, TT also had:

Centennial Summer, which was dropped due to an unspecified rights conflict.
The Iron Horse, which was waiting on Fox to complete a restoration. The restoration was put on hold during the Disney buy-out, and (as far as I know) still hasn't been finished.
Gorilla at Large. Not sure what the hold-up was on that. Might've been waiting on Fox to restore it or create an HD master.

Centennial Summer was an Otto Preminger production that Fox didn't renew their rights on and had lapsed into PD. However, Turner/Warner purchased the rights to Otto Preminger titles that were in PD or the distributor didn't renew their copyright on. This included Man with the Golden Arm, Saint Joan, Advise and Consent, and very likely Centennial Summer. Warner would be the best bet to put that one out if they indeed own it.

The Iron Horse had existing HD masters for both 150 and 133 min cuts, but TT learned of Fox working on 4k restos with newly discovered materials from the BFI. TT waited but they never got completed due to the Disney merger discharging Fox's staff.

Gorilla at Large has a decent HD master, but TT found it "too problematic" to use and had swapped it out with another title.

TT did have Prince Valiant and White Feather (1955) as well, but rejected their HD masters for similar reasons. Both do have BD releases in the UK and Germany if one wants to jump on them.

I think TT also had 23 Paces to Baker Street, Boy on a Dolphin, and A Farewell to Arms at some point too, but had dropped them because Fox only had 4:3 SD masters for the former two and a "problematic" HD master of the latter. Kino later got all 3 in their Fox packages with 4k remasters.

TT were originally set to release At Long Last, Love with a new HD master of a never before seen longer cut. Fox saw unexpected demand and at the last minute, traded a big title with TT so they could release it themselves as an Amazon exclusive.

I think one other now deleted post mentioned more Fox titles they had and were dropped due to reasons. Some of these I think were:

Princess of the Nile (4:3 SD master)

The Raid (see above)

On the Threshold of Space (see above)

Bernadine (see above)

The Canadians (see above)

Prudence and the Pill (see above)

The Girl Can't Help It (HD master was "too problematic" and were waiting for Fox to complete a 4k resto before the Disney merger and TT's issues happened)

Quintet (see above)

Willie & Phil (see above)

Making Love (see above)

Johnny Dangerously (see above)

Great Expectations 1998 (see above)

Anna and the King (see above)

The Turning Point (I think that one was already under licence to Anchor Bay, but they never released it)

Unfaithfully Yours

Health (legal and music rights issues)

Tribute (see above)

Working Girl (Fox only had a "problematic" HD master, but later created a 4k remaster and put it out on Blu themselves)

When the Whales Came

Class Action

Barton Fink (they traded it with Kino for a different title they wanted)

Nell

[DukeTogo84]

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Centennial Summer was an Otto Preminger production that Fox didn't renew their rights on and had lapsed into PD. However, Turner/Warner purchased the rights to Otto Preminger titles that were in PD or the distributor didn't renew their copyright on. This included Man with the Golden Arm, Saint Joan, Advise and Consent, and very likely Centennial Summer. Warner would be the best bet to put that one out if they indeed own it.

The Iron Horse had existing HD masters for both 150 and 133 min cuts, but TT learned of Fox working on 4k restos with newly discovered materials from the BFI. TT waited but they never got completed due to the Disney merger discharging Fox's staff.

Gorilla at Large has a decent HD master, but TT found it "too problematic" to use and had swapped it out with another title.

TT did have Prince Valiant and White Feather (1955) as well, but rejected their HD masters for similar reasons. Both do have BD releases in the UK and Germany if one wants to jump on them.

I think TT also had 23 Paces to Baker Street, Boy on a Dolphin, and A Farewell to Arms at some point too, but had dropped them because Fox only had 4:3 SD masters for the former two and a "problematic" HD master of the latter. Kino later got all 3 in their Fox packages with 4k remasters.

TT were originally set to release At Long Last, Love with a new HD master of a never before seen longer cut. Fox saw unexpected demand and at the last minute, traded a big title with TT so they could release it themselves as an Amazon exclusive.

I think one other now deleted post mentioned more Fox titles they had and were dropped due to reasons. Some of these I think were:

Princess of the Nile (4:3 SD master)

The Raid (see above)

On the Threshold of Space (see above)

Bernadine (see above)

The Canadians (see above)

Prudence and the Pill (see above)

The Girl Can't Help It (HD master was "too problematic" and were waiting for Fox to complete a 4k resto before the Disney merger and TT's issues happened)

Quintet (see above)

Willie & Phil (see above)

Making Love (see above)

Johnny Dangerously (see above)

Great Expectations 1998 (see above)

Anna and the King (see above)

The Turning Point (I think that one was already under licence to Anchor Bay, but they never released it)

Unfaithfully Yours

Health (legal and music rights issues)

Tribute (see above)

Working Girl (Fox only had a "problematic" HD master, but later created a 4k remaster and put it out on Blu themselves)

When the Whales Came

Class Action

Barton Fink (they traded it with Kino for a different title they wanted)

Nell

I always enjoy your very informative posts as you seem to have a lot of inside knowledge about who owns what.

I'm not sure if this is something you have mentioned in the past, but just wondering how do you know so much about all of this?

[Ned Brainard]

I'm particularly disappointed that Bernadine never materialized. My DVD-r I made from TCM's broadcast will have to suffice - warts, cropping, panning, and scanning, and all.

I assume that Unfaithfully Yours is the Dudley Moore remake as I would expect that Criterion has likely held onto the Rex Harrison version.

I must admit that my enthusiasm for the revived TT has waned somewhat since learning that the "unused" licenses from the "original" TT have not been carried forward. Still, there are good movies to be gleaned from non-studio sources. At this point, I have no expectations. If something I want is put out, great. If not, oh well. Life goes on, and I still have plenty of movies to watch.