HDR is crayons

[Patsfan123]

Originally Posted by fighthefutureofhd

I'm the same way. In fact, I recently purchased a DVD (it's not on Blu-ray or UHD) and found that there was also a 4K download version of the movie as well. So I HAD to download the 4K version as well. Well, the file is too big for my external hard drive so I bought a 50 pack spindle of blank Blu-ray discs to burn a data disc copy I can play on my Oppo (I don't have the capabilities yet to burn 4K UHD discs, but will soon). Come to find out my burning software is so old it won't burn onto Blu-ray discs. So I HAD to upgrade the burning software. After all is said and done I spent close to $80 dollars to be able to watch a 4k version of said DVD.

What movie and how did you get a 4K download?

Not for nothing, but there are plenty of freeware burning software out there.

[LoSouL]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

Interesting video about RDR2, since it was discussed earlier in the thread. The HDR is "fake" and a mess on both PS4 and Xbox. Vincent recommends turning it off for this game.

Red Dead Redemption 2 4K HDR Analysis... It's Faked from SDR. - YouTube

I was watching that yesterday. The evidence shows the dynamic range is capped, but I really do not agree that it looks better in SDR in any way, even in it's current state. I tried turning it off after watching that and it was instantly obnoxious and simple looking, almost primary color-ish, white and black all getting a crushed/blown out/clipped look, lights in the sky and indoors turning into blobs of orange and white, losing all translucency. No contour, depth or natural haze. Goes from looking "real" to looking like a cartoon imo.

I could see what the in-game HDR slider was doing on day 1, and after experimenting I just left it at the default 100. Since I'm not turning it up to wash out blacks, and still getting a bit of highlights from the lighting, it looks great to me. But hey if they do patch it to extend or widen the dynamic range and take the cap off it, it will likely look even better, so have at it.

An SDR-ish 150-equivalent nit range operating inside the HDR container is still going to be able to flex and tonemap to your display in a meaningful way. Not to mention the color bit depth tied to both ranges. I can't even wrap my head around the comments that think it looks better in SDR, but if they have to play it that way until it's patched... whatever.

This is a game where both a technical problem and an aesthetic choice are getting muddied together. Half the people just want the gaming equivalent of Pacific Rim and are pointing to the numerical deficiency as a support for their argument.

Plus, nobody's yet analyzed how this game is even rendering or communicating it's HDR, whether it's a blanket application or done in-engine, per-object etc. Digital Foundry speculated about that for just a minute or two in their coverage of Far Cry 5 for PC, on what kind of performance impacts HDR implementation could have on games... that it depends on the implementation, where it's less than 1% or potentially much more if tendered a certain way in the future. It's possible that Rockstar's HDR ascribes "hey light this up, turn this down" selectively, and caps itself at a hard line in order to maintain the framerate depending on what's going on/when, where the player is looking etc. The game shines most back at camp when the open world load effectively goes away for a bit, everything gets more up close and intimate, zero action... day time sunlight there looks insane, and night time with a roaring campfire has better halation than anywhere else. Especially vs the daytime campfire Vincent was pointing to in that vid.

[fighthefutureofhd]

Originally Posted by Patsfan123

What movie and how did you get a 4K download?

ONLY click down below

[Show spoiler]I'M WARNING YOU

if you really want to know

[Show spoiler]FINAL WARNING

:

[Show spoiler]Black Panther Wakan Dat ***

One of the websites that was selling the DVD also had an option for a 4K download. Though I'm not sure how "truly 4K" the download is since it's only around 8 GB. That's that about the same size as a regular DVD. We'll see.

Originally Posted by Patsfan123

Not for nothing, but there are plenty of freeware burning software out there.

NOW HE TELLS ME!!!!

Though this does come with an option to add Dolby digital surround sound among many other options so I'm pleased.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

You know, sometimes I'm jealous of those who can happily still watch DVDs on any old cheap TV and not care less.

I'd have saved an absolute fortune.

My mom is like that, but she just dropped a lot of money on an expensive sewing machine and pattern set. Everybody's got something that parts them from their money

[Colson]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Everybody's got something that parts them from their money

If I could get my list down to just one thing, I'd be in great shape. Current items:

- Movies
- Games
- PC parts
- TVs
- Original movie posters
- Signed stuff
And of course,
- Vegas, baby!

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by LoSouL

I was watching that yesterday. The evidence shows the dynamic range is capped, but I really do not agree that it looks better in SDR in any way, even in it's current state. I tried turning it off after watching that and it was instantly obnoxious and simple looking, almost primary color-ish, white and black all getting a crushed/blown out/clipped look, lights in the sky and indoors turning into blobs of orange and white, losing all translucency. No contour, depth or natural haze. Goes from looking "real" to looking like a cartoon imo.

I could see what the in-game HDR slider was doing on day 1, and after experimenting I just left it at the default 100. Since I'm not turning it up to wash out blacks, and still getting a bit of highlights from the lighting, it looks great to me. But hey if they do patch it to extend or widen the dynamic range and take the cap off it, it will likely look even better, so have at it.

An SDR-ish 150-equivalent nit range operating inside the HDR container is still going to be able to flex and tonemap to your display in a meaningful way. Not to mention the color bit depth tied to both ranges. I can't even wrap my head around the comments that think it looks better in SDR, but if they have to play it that way until it's patched... whatever.

This is a game where both a technical problem and an aesthetic choice are getting muddied together. Half the people just want the gaming equivalent of Pacific Rim and are pointing to the numerical deficiency as a support for their argument.

Plus, nobody's yet analyzed how this game is even rendering or communicating it's HDR, whether it's a blanket application or done in-engine, per-object etc. Digital Foundry speculated about that for just a minute or two in their coverage of Far Cry 5 for PC, on what kind of performance impacts HDR implementation could have on games... that it depends on the implementation, where it's less than 1% or potentially much more if tendered a certain way in the future. It's possible that Rockstar's HDR ascribes "hey light this up, turn this down" selectively, and caps itself at a hard line in order to maintain the framerate depending on what's going on/when, where the player is looking etc. The game shines most back at camp when the open world load effectively goes away for a bit, everything gets more up close and intimate, zero action... day time sunlight there looks insane, and night time with a roaring campfire has better halation than anywhere else. Especially vs the daytime campfire Vincent was pointing to in that vid.

Vincent's video suggests that the SDR version actually has higher dynamic range than the HDR version, which indicates that something is definitely off. Even with a UHD disc like Blade Runner 2049, which only has a MaxCLL of 181, it's still presenting the movie in a higher dynamic range than the SDR BD.

As far as which version looks better, that's going to vary based on each individual's preference. It's difficult to determine which one is more faithful to what the developers intended, though.

Either way, this is a stunningly beautiful game. The level of detail in the enormous open world that they've built, and what native 4K has done for the image, is remarkable.

[LoSouL]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

Vincent's video suggests that the SDR version actually has higher dynamic range than the HDR version, which indicates that something is definitely off. Even with a UHD disc like Blade Runner 2049, which only has a MaxCLL of 181, it's still presenting the movie in a higher dynamic range than the SDR BD.

As far as which version looks better, that's going to vary based on each individual's preference. It's difficult to determine which one is more faithful to what the developers intended, though.

Either way, this is a stunningly beautiful game. The level of detail in the enormous open world that they've built, and what native 4K has done for the image, is remarkable.

Digital Foundry put out a video today covering it too, some pretty interesting stuff. I'm kinda glad to see them covering HDR more thoroughly, since they stopped even uploading much HDR vids in general for awhile now.

https://youtu.be/aDGIU88p-EU?t=457

@ 7:37

Basically the highlights are all ~500 nits, and everything else on screen is essentially SDR at ~100. Little to no variation between them. I still stand by it looking better in HDR, on my end, even though it's borked. Could end up outstanding if they implement HDR properly in response to all this coverage, so that it's actually dynamic.

I know we're not on the game board, but HDR is crayons.

[smithb]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Annoying part is I'm more or less fine watching a DVD when it's the only option, or an old BD master. After 5 minutes I don't really think about it anymore and just enjoy the movie.

When there's a better option though, I find it impossible to ignore.

I feel the same way, except instead of considering it annoying, I find it a blessing. Especially, since 95+% of the 300+ TV series that I own are only available on DVD, and probably 50% of 2000+ movies are still only on DVD. Then there are the classic sports I collect that many times have been transferred from VHS tapes.

While I enjoy all the bells and whistles of the technological face-lifts performed on catalog movie titles, having collected them on various formats over the past 30 years, I'd much prefer focusing on the content new to me first and foremost. 4K/UHD just isn't there yet for content from the 1930's through 1950's, and there is no telling when or how much of it will ever get that treatment.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by LoSouL

Digital Foundry put out a video today covering it too, some pretty interesting stuff. I'm kinda glad to see them covering HDR more thoroughly, since they stopped even uploading much HDR vids in general for awhile now.

https://youtu.be/aDGIU88p-EU?t=457

@ 7:37

Basically the highlights are all ~500 nits, and everything else on screen is essentially SDR at ~100. Little to no variation between them. I still stand by it looking better in HDR, on my end, even though it's borked. Could end up outstanding if they implement HDR properly in response to all this coverage, so that it's actually dynamic.

I know we're not on the game board, but HDR is crayons.

It's only 500 nits if you turn the in-game HDR brightness setting to the max (500.) On 100, it's 100 nits.

Even if they fix it, I don't expect the HDR to be in FH4 or Gears of War 4 territory. The overall look of the game will be very similar, and it still looks fantastic now as it is.

[StingingVelvet]

It's a shame PC gaming hasn't really gotten into HDR, as despite me mostly being done with gaming now I'd like to check out an HDR game. Not buying a $600 Xbox I'd barely use to do it though.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

It's a shame PC gaming hasn't really gotten into HDR, as despite me mostly being done with gaming now I'd like to check out an HDR game. Not buying a $600 Xbox I'd barely use to do it though.

It hasn't been $600 for a while, and I'm not sure if it ever was. Xbox One X is currently $499 with some nice discounts to come on Black Friday. You also get a 4K blu-ray player that's on par with pretty much every standalone player with the exception of the Oppo, the higher Panasonic models, and the Cambridge.

If you don't care about 4K for games and just want HDR, the base PS4 and Xbox One S, which are much cheaper, support HDR (but not 4K.)

There is a lot of nice looking HDR when it comes to gaming.

[Colson]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

It hasn't been $600 for a while, and I'm not sure if it ever was. Xbox One X is currently $499 with some nice discounts to come on Black Friday. You also get a 4K blu-ray player that's on par with pretty much every standalone player with the exception of the Oppo, the higher Panasonic models, and the Cambridge.

If you don't care about 4K for games and just want HDR, the base PS4 and Xbox One S, which are much cheaper, support HDR (but not 4K.)

There is a lot of nice looking HDR when it comes to gaming.

Worth noting that the Xbox One X does not support Dolby Vision for UHD discs.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Colson

Worth noting that the Xbox One X does not support Dolby Vision for UHD discs.

Not yet.

The person I was replying to doesn't have a DV-compatible TV anyways, so it shouldn't matter to him.

[LoSouL]

Yeah, it's been slow to catch on with PC for some reason. Part "HDR is a gimmick" skepticism, part "why would I trade 1080p 120+ fps for 4K 60/30" sentiment due to how closely tied HDR is to 4K and the need for HDMI 2.1, and then just developers being slow to adopt thinking they aren't the ones who need to take the initiative in a chicken or egg situation. In the past, big AAA devs have usually been incentivised by graphics card manufacturers to support new tech, but HDR isn't quite like that.

Bethesda's finally implementing HDR in their games with Fallout 76, but Doom could have used a patch, and stuff like Prey + Evil Within 2 should have had it from release. They've been lagging behind Square, EA, Ubisoft and Activision in that regard.

I think Microsoft has helped push it some since their interests in getting Xbox games in HDR (ie: likely paying Square for HDR in NieR Automata) overlaps with the Windows 10 availability of everything. So they want HDR to be more plug and play on PC and can do that at an OS level. They seem really buddy buddy with Bethesda too, ever since 360 ran their games better and since X1 was more inherently open to mods during their Creation Club attempt.

StingingVelvet plays CRPG's mostly, so there's not a whole lot for him on console, and the few CRPG's we do get are later ports, re-tooled for controller play.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by LoSouL

StingingVelvet plays CRPG's mostly, so there's not a whole lot for him on console, and the few CRPG's we do get are later ports, re-tooled for controller play.

Indeed, it just doesn't make sense for me to spend anywhere near what an Xbox One X costs just to play around with HDR games. I wouldn't actually use it as a game system for longer than a weekend experiment. If stuff like Witcher 3 ever gets HDR on PC though I'll hook my PC up to my TV and see how it looks.

[kristoffer]

My hope is that future 4K releases will retain more of the original look, like we have already seen on some releases.

http://notonbluray.com/blog/orange-a...4AImbjQYKcQo-M

[Cook]

The issue is what is the original look? It's iffy to make the look of a film on a very old format like LD or DVD the standard by which 4K releases need to be judged. Even the look of older films during their theatrical release was inconsistent and greatly effected by the theater in question. At best we can guess or go by the opinion of the DOP or director. And even then what it really comes down to is personal preference of each viewer. You prefer the look of some films as they were presented on older formats. I prefer in many cases the look of the remasters. The DOP or Director seems to prefer the new looks of the remasters. Sometimes what the DOP or director prefer is hot garbage. *cough*Terminator 2*cough* Its all a bit of a crapshoot.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

My hope is that future 4K releases will retain more of the original look, like we have already seen on some releases.

http://notonbluray.com/blog/orange-a...4AImbjQYKcQo-M

Yeah, like Cook said a lot of people have a bias to how things were on VHS and DVD and assume new masters are revisionist. That article uses Aliens as an example of teal'ing a movie, but we have print scans now that show it was always more teal than the DVD was. Also I assume that teal would be more refined on UHD.

[Noremac Mij]

Aliens on the TV’s warmest setting looks very close to how it looked like originally. Interiors of Sulaco and the mess hall was completely teal in the original 70mm print I saw recently.

People who see too much teal on the Blu have improperly calibrated quipment.

[Geoff D]

Most of those sets mentioned were lit with fluorescents so it's no wonder they looked as greeny/blue as they did. What I love about the Aliens Blu-ray is that when a white non-fluoro light source appears in those scenes it actually looks white.

I KNOW that using production stills is folly when it comes to proving what looked like what, but I've always dug this photo because it clearly shows the heavy green bias from all the fluoro fixtures on the right (film reacts to the wavelength of fluorescent light the same way in stills and motion pictures), but the studio lights that can be seen in the rafters on the left at the top are a much warmer 'normal' tone, as is the white backlight behind them.