Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Jakdonark]

Originally Posted by GenPion

Spielberg basically did direct Poltergeist. Or at least a significant portion of it. The entire cast refereed to him as such.

There is debate on this but he definitely contributed. He had originally wanted to direct it but the studio said no because he was also releasing E.T. the same year.

Yeah my post was supposed to be kind of sarcastic, I've read extensively on that whole subject, and Poltergeist has been next to ET in my Spielberg section for as long as I can remember. I know because of all the rules from the DGA how the credits work, and it's fascinating to see how many movies were ghost directed or guest directed. In Sin City's case Tarantino was credited as Guest Director. I thought my inclusion of that made it a bit more obvious. It would be very interesting to find out how much work Lucas did on RTOz, and how much on set influence he had on his other productions, like Howard the Duck, Willow, or Radioland Murders.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

I know I am in the minority here, but I just don't see it.

....but I didnt mind the "NOOOOOO" or digitized Yoda Episode I fix.

Plus you think Empire is overrated. Digitized Yoda aside, you definitely are in the minority.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Plus you think Empire is overrated. Digitized Yoda aside, you definitely are in the minority.

Empire is overrated compared to Star Wars and according to the numbers I am not in the minority. Matter of fact worldwide adjusted for inflation puts Empire at 4th place.

But so what if I am? Me saying Empire is overrated says nothing about my aggreeing with most of the digital changes if there are to be any sequels.

Sure OT unaltered one vision fans who forget about all the other changes maybe, but as was pointed out, the numbers are dwindling. I am not sure there was so many to begin. Han Shoots First fan clubs are proof of this. Dumbest slogan ever, from people that never undderstood what happened in the orignal scene.

[JasonHensley]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Empire is overrated compared to Star Wars and according to the numbers I am not in the minority. Matter of fact worldwide adjusted for inflation puts Empire at 4th place.

But so what if I am? Me saying Empire is overrated says nothing about my aggreeing with most of the digital changes if there are to be any sequels.

Sure OT unaltered one vision fans who forget about all the other changes maybe, but as was pointed out, the numbers are dwindling. I am not sure there was so many to begin. Han Shoots First fan clubs are proof of this. Dumbest slogan ever, from people that never undderstood what happened in the orignal scene.

What happened in the original scene?

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by JasonHensley

What happened in the original scene?

Han was the only one that shot. "First" implies that someone shot second. Stupiity.

Also in the special edition Greedo purposely misses Han because he shoots where his hand is that was used as a distraction in the old version (Hans left). Greedo thus gives a warning shot that fanboys call a "miss" from a bounty hunter. Han now leans and shoots thus making him part of the John Wayne school where you don't threaten someone like Greedo did unless you intend to kill. Greedo would have missed whether Han leaned or not. Follow the shot and you willunderstand what I speak of. OT fans don't get most of these concepts.

This new digital change aligns more with the love sick puppy that Han is in Empire because he comes back with a change of heart as opposed to a man that re-enters a war against the Empire which he no doubt has not been happy about before. Still selfish, but alligning with a greater good.

I look at Han in the original cut like Rick from Casablanca and standing tall at the end as a man that helped rebels but isn't going to be around in a sequel to get Leah to "express her true feelings".

I prefer the old version if the inferior Empire Strikes Back doesn't exist.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Definitely an interesting read, but it reinforces what I already thought about Lucas. He's a really smart guy, who knows a lot about the mechanics of storytelling and mythology, but he absolutely cannot seem to translate that to his own movies. You can analyze cordial love and compare storytelling techniques to your heart's content but IMO it did not work on any level in Attack of the Clones.

I didn't read that piece but I've said it before that if you mute the audio and watch their fireside chat in Clones silently then it really works, and I love the prescient 'choker' design of her outfit too, but as soon as they start speaking it all falls apart.

Originally Posted by Arawn

No DVDs?

Yes, I watched Sith on DVD just last night to prepare for Rogue One (which I think is a ton of fun) and thoroughly enjoyed it. The movie is a typical prequel joint so when it clunks it REALLY clunks, but it's got so much good stuff that I can't help but dig it e.g. the astonishing opening shot, 'Squid Lake', the 'looking out over Coruscant' bit, Order 66, "Anakin is the father isn't he? I'm so sorry", "So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause", Anakin vs Ob-Wan, Sidious vs Yoda.

If we'd had THAT Lucas do the other two prequels then they mightn't be as reviled as they are today. I mean, they'd still have plenty of detractors and RIGHTLY so (got me a real LUV/H8 thing going on with them) but if there was enough good to outweigh the bad and enough narrative propulsion to quickly speed past the shite instead of letting it marinate, then they mightn't have been reamed quite so badly by the fans.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Han was the only one that shot. "First" implies that someone shot second. Stupiity.

Also in the special edition Greedo purposely misses Han because he shoots where his hand is that was used as a distraction in the old version (Hans left). Greedo thus gives a warning shot that fanboys call a "miss" from a bounty hunter. Han now leans and shoots thus making him part of the John Wayne school where you don't threaten someone like Greedo did unless you intend to kill. Greedo would have missed whether Han leaned or not. Follow the shot and you willunderstand what I speak of. OT fans don't get most of these concepts.

This new digital change aligns more with the love sick puppy that Han is in Empire because he comes back with a change of heart as opposed to a man that re-enters a war against the Empire which he no doubt has not been happy about before. Still selfish, but alligning with a greater good.

I look at Han in the original cut like Rick from Casablanca and standing tall at the end as a man that helped rebels but isn't going to be around in a sequel to get Leah to "express her true feelings".

I prefer the old version if the inferior Empire Strikes Back doesn't exist.

Lucas has changed his reasoning on that change on more then one occasion. First he said it was to make Han a better character and not a cold blooded killer, neglecting to realize it downplays his transition from antihero to hero at the end. Then he tried wording it that Greedo shot first all along and it only looked the other way around because the original had the sequence in close ups. Now his recent explanation is to make Han a 'John Wayne type'. Perhaps there's elements of truth in all three of those explanations but personally I don't buy the second. The sequence just doesn't seem that way and also Peter Mayhew (Chewbacca) posted the original script passage of that scene on his Twitter and there was no implication from the text that Greedo shot at all.

Next when was it established at all that Greedo missed purposely?? Where did that notion come from?? I never heard that notion until you brought it up. Just the same the change was pointless. Greedo made his intentions to kill Han quite clear so Han had two choices: kill or be killed and he'd be damned if it was gonna be the latter.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

I know I am in the minority here, but I just don't see it.

You take the truly creepy nature of what I feel to be academy award acting by the Emperor almost coming off as child molesting that puts an extreme un"bland" quality. Even the weird opera thing I equate to a drug reference. I shudder at that scene. When Mace Windu comes in and we learn it is false hope, it has been so many times before but still oh so effective.

It's fine because everyone is different and responds to thing differently in films. Prequel fans clearly find things in the movies that really resonate with them, but they just don't for me for the most part. I'm still finishing up The Clone Wars series which has a lot of great stuff in it, and then I'm going to revisit RotS with that context and see what I think.

However, I will agree with you on Ian McDiarmid. I didn't mention him in my last post, but hes fantastic in the prequels, especially Episode III.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I didn't read that piece but I've said it before that if you mute the audio and watch their fireside chat in Clones silently then it really works, and I love the prescient 'choker' design of her outfit too, but as soon as they start speaking it all falls apart.


Yes, I watched Sith on DVD just last night to prepare for Rogue One (which I think is a ton of fun) and thoroughly enjoyed it. The movie is a typical prequel joint so when it clunks it REALLY clunks, but it's got so much good stuff that I can't help but dig it e.g. the astonishing opening shot, 'Squid Lake', the 'looking out over Coruscant' bit, Order 66, "Anakin is the father isn't he? I'm so sorry", "So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause", Anakin vs Ob-Wan, Sidious vs Yoda.

If we'd had THAT Lucas do the other two prequels then they mightn't be as reviled as they are today. I mean, they'd still have plenty of detractors and RIGHTLY so (got me a real LUV/H8 thing going on with them) but if there was enough good to outweigh the bad and enough narrative propulsion to quickly speed past the shite instead of letting it marinate, then they mightn't have been reamed quite so badly by the fans.

Its also fun to watch that scene in French with English subtitles and pretend you're watching a foreign film. It actually works a bit better and comes off less stiff

But yeah, I have issues with Revenge of the Sith, but I think its WAY better overall than the first two prequels, which I find to have little redeeming value. By its very nature it justifies it's purpose more just because its the one where all the shit goes down, but you also hear stories about how Lucas was a bit more energetic in his directing as he was nearing the end and it actually shows in the film.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Its also fun to watch that scene in French with English subtitles and pretend you're watching a foreign film. It actually works a bit better and comes off less stiff

The funny thing is, I've always thought that the dialogue sounds like a foreign translation anyway, you know what I mean? There's a certain kind of clipped formality to most translations I've seen over the years and the dialogue as written seems to emulate that, weirdly enough.

But yeah, I have issues with Revenge of the Sith, but I think its WAY better overall than the first two prequels, which I find to have little redeeming value. By its very nature it justifies it's purpose more just because its the one where all the shit goes down, but you also hear stories about how Lucas was a bit more energetic in his directing as he was nearing the end and it actually shows in the film.

Yes, exactly: Lucas had started to become comfy in the director's chair again, it's just such a shame it had to be for the last film out of three!

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Lucas has changed his reasoning on that change on more then one occasion. First he said it was to make Han a better character and not a cold blooded killer, neglecting to realize it downplays his transition from antihero to hero at the end. Then he tried wording it that Greedo shot first all along and it only looked the other way around because the original had the sequence in close ups. Now his recent explanation is to make Han a 'John Wayne type'. Perhaps there's elements of truth in all three of those explanations but personally I don't buy the second. The sequence just doesn't seem that way and also Peter Mayhew (Chewbacca) posted the original script passage of that scene on his Twitter and there was no implication from the text that Greedo shot at all.

Next when was it established at all that Greedo missed purposely?? Where did that notion come from?? I never heard that notion until you brought it up. Just the same the change was pointless. Greedo made his intentions to kill Han quite clear so Han had two choices: kill or be killed and he'd be damned if it was gonna be the latter.

What does him not having it in the original script have anything to do with what Lucas decided on in the end??? Leia wasn't originally his sister either. SO WHAT. Star Wars was a one off movie at first. Lots of things changed. The cherry picking of some fans is what never made sense to me.

As for Greedo missing on purpose, that is my theory. Greedo made it clear in the orginal script and movie he was bargaining. Taking the ship, and living was an option.

What is clear is that Greedo missed, by A LOT. Fans will exclaim he was a bad shot without thinking for a moment that it could have been on purpose especially when you moments earlier had Hans hand in that spot before!

It is the same ultra stupidity of Han shoots first!!!

Just because you haven't heard that theory doesn't mean it can't be true. Watch the scene, look where the laser goes and learn that Han leaning or not wouldn't change a thing. Greedo would have missed. Wouldn't want to use our heads would we? So if anyone else in any movie fires a warning shot it is accepted, but if Lucas does it then it is sooo different?

Why does someone have to follow a flock to be right? Quit following. Use deductive reasoning.

[Mighty Max]

Leia

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

It's fine because everyone is different and responds to thing differently in films. Prequel fans clearly find things in the movies that really resonate with them, but they just don't for me for the most part. I'm still finishing up The Clone Wars series which has a lot of great stuff in it, and then I'm going to revisit RotS with that context and see what I think.

However, I will agree with you on Ian McDiarmid. I didn't mention him in my last post, but hes fantastic in the prequels, especially Episode III.

I need to watch Clone Wars. I agree it is about taste, I certainly don't think we have to feel the same, I just get annoyed when people flame instead of explaining their stance, or throwng a fit when challenged. We can't learn if we don't keep an open mind.

[WhySoBlu?]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0sFN-8L4Xc

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

What does him not having it in the original script have anything to do with what Lucas decided on in the end??? Leia wasn't originally his sister either. SO WHAT. Star Wars was a one off movie at first. Lots of things changed. The cherry picking of some fans is what never made sense to me.

As for Greedo missing on purpose, that is my theory. Greedo made it clear in the orginal script and movie he was bargaining. Taking the ship, and living was an option.

What is clear is that Greedo missed, by A LOT. Fans will exclaim he was a bad shot without thinking for a moment that it could have been on purpose especially when you moments earlier had Hans hand in that spot before!

It is the same ultra stupidity of Han shoots first!!!

Just because you haven't heard that theory doesn't mean it can't be true. Watch the scene, look where the laser goes and learn that Han leaning or not wouldn't change a thing. Greedo would have missed. Wouldn't want to use our heads would we? So if anyone else in any movie fires a warning shot it is accepted, but if Lucas does it then it is sooo different?

Why does someone have to follow a flock to be right? Quit following. Use deductive reasoning.

Well you did not specify earlier it was 'your theory'. You said 'In the special edition Greedo missed purposely'. Also I didn't say Han shot first and I know that's the incorrect way to put it anyways. He shot ONLY. Yes I'm not dumb.

But honestly if the majority just follow the notion that he was a bad shot then what's the point in theorizing anyways?? Either way it did nothing to add to the scene other than resentment from fans. And if Greedo wasnt gonna kill Han Jabba certainly would have. He notioned that Jabba would take Han's ship which Han responded 'over my dead body' which Greedo says 'that's the idea'. Han was facing death either way hence why he pulled his blaster out. If Lucas really wanted Han to be a 'John Wayne type' he would have had Han simply unhook his holster and wait for the correct opportunity to draw. This didn't happen. Han pulled out the blaster hence meaning he intended to kill Greedo the first chance he got.

[Ernest Rister]

John Wayne has some hard feelings.

Big Jake - YouTube

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I watched Sith on DVD just last night to prepare for Rogue One

With the exception of TFA, I've seen all of the preexisting movies too many times.

To prepare for Rogue One I played through several levels of The Force Unleashed II with a Neimoidian skin ( and two Life Drain crystals ).

And then right before the movie I skimmed some of the book Catalyst at Walmart.

[ElvisForever]

Did some posts get deleted?

A shame. All I can say is the dialogue supports Greedo never intended to kill Han first.

Han was a coward and ran and shot blindly and badly many times over. He was a "wing it" kinda guy.

The John Wayne clips are not what Lucas spoke of. Honor came after making a judgment that the person was going to kill or was acting without honor.

[Mighty Max]

Whoa!
WTF?
Why did my post get deleted?

[crissrudd4554]

I'll just leave it with what I tend to answer discussions like this. Opinions will be opinions.